[{"data":1,"prerenderedAt":4553},["ShallowReactive",2],{"podcast-marketing-leaders-icp-isnt-static-heres-how-to-get-it-right":3,"header-articles":846,"updatesSection-all":2709,"updatesSection-all-team":3564},{"_path":4,"_dir":5,"_draft":6,"_partial":6,"_locale":7,"title":8,"description":9,"date":10,"audio":11,"guest":14,"iframe":15,"series":16,"authors":17,"episode":19,"minutes":20,"guestimg":21,"guesturl":22,"seotitle":8,"guestabout":23,"body":24,"_type":840,"_id":841,"_source":842,"_file":843,"_stem":844,"_extension":845,"category":5},"/podcasts/marketing-leaders/icp-isnt-static-heres-how-to-get-it-right","marketing-leaders",false,"","ICP Isn’t Static—Here’s How to Get It Right","In this episode, Yehuda Cagen discusses how to define and refine your Ideal Customer Profile (ICP) in today’s highly skeptical B2B landscape.  He breaks down why ICP is the foundation of any marketing strategy, how to identify the right audience, and what it takes to build messaging that actually resonates—especially in cybersecurity where trust is hard to earn.","2026-04-02T19:26:00Z",{"url":12,"length":13},"https://share.transistor.fm/s/bff062be","64971418","Yehuda Cagen","https://share.transistor.fm/e/bff062be","Back on T-R-A-C-K",[18],"Kerry Guard","215","62","/images/podcast/yehuda-cagen.webp","https://www.linkedin.com/in/yehudacagen/","Yehuda Cagen is a results-driven marketing leader who builds high-impact campaigns that drive growth, efficiency, and brand value.",{"type":25,"children":26,"toc":835},"root",[27,40,46,55,60,65,70,75,80,85,90,95,100,105,110,115,120,125,130,135,140,145,150,155,160,165,170,175,180,185,190,195,200,205,210,215,220,225,230,235,240,245,250,255,260,265,270,275,280,285,290,295,300,305,310,315,320,325,330,335,340,345,350,355,360,365,370,375,380,385,390,395,400,405,410,415,420,425,430,435,440,445,450,455,460,465,470,475,480,485,490,495,500,505,510,515,520,525,530,535,540,545,550,555,560,565,570,575,580,585,590,595,600,605,610,615,620,625,630,635,640,645,650,655,660,665,670,675,680,685,690,695,700,705,710,715,720,725,730,735,740,745,750,755,760,765,770,775,780,785,790,795,800,805,810,815,820,825,830],{"type":28,"tag":29,"props":30,"children":32},"element","h2",{"id":31},"overview",[33],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":35,"children":36},"strong",{},[37],{"type":38,"value":39},"text","Overview:",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":42,"children":43},"p",{},[44],{"type":38,"value":45},"Yehuda explains why marketers need to move beyond broad targeting and focus on the accounts that truly align with their product. He also highlights the importance of understanding the full buying committee—from champions to economic buyers to internal blockers—and tailoring messaging for each. The conversation reinforces a key idea: when you know who you’re speaking to, and just as importantly, who you’re not, your marketing becomes more focused, more effective, and far more trusted.",{"type":28,"tag":29,"props":47,"children":49},{"id":48},"transcript",[50],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":51,"children":52},{},[53],{"type":38,"value":54},"Transcript:",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":56,"children":57},{},[58],{"type":38,"value":59}," 0:00  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":61,"children":62},{},[63],{"type":38,"value":64},"But at the same time, you can't work in fear, right? And I mean that that doesn't necessarily help either. Now, it's good to match, you know, mesh in a little bit of fear with some of the passion, but at the same time, if you understand your audience well, and you know that certain messages resonate with that audience, then I don't think you have much to be fearful of. Now, obviously, there's going to be people that have a bad day, and they'll lash out at you, and you just have to kind of take it for what it is, right? They probably had a bad day, and then it you're going to, no matter what discipline you're in, you're going to come across challenges and problems.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":66,"children":67},{},[68],{"type":38,"value":69},"Kerry Guard  0:48  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":71,"children":72},{},[73],{"type":38,"value":74},"Kerry, hello, I'm Kerry Guard, and welcome to Tea Time with Tech Marketing Leaders. This episode is brought to you by mkg marketing, the digital marketing agency that helps complex brands build trust with complex audiences via SEO and digital ads. We are live on LinkedIn and YouTube. If you are here, say hello. I'm hanging out in the comments. I want to know. I can't see you unless you say hello. Say something. Tell me where you're from, tell us what's going on, what's hard for you. We're here for it, and we, most importantly, look forward to all of your questions, because that's the beauty of being live here on LinkedIn and YouTube, is we get to hear from you and make sure you feel like you can walk away with something, you can go do something, lean into something, and ensure your marketing is better in terms of building trust with your end user, which is the ultimate goal of all of the things in terms of how marketing should roll. So we are here for it. We look forward to hearing from you. Let's go. Let's go. With me today is Yehuda Kagan, an experienced and results-oriented marketer with the ability to develop, implement, and manage forward-driven marketing campaigns that drive lead gen, increase revenue, and elevate brand value. He's a dedicated marketing innovator with experience in motivating teams to deliver peak performance, enhancing the efficiency of processes and spend, to positively impact revenue and brand equity. The dream. You are the dream, Yahuda, we are here for it, and we're excited to dive into today's conversation around the ICP. We're going to get into what that acronym soup means in a second. But welcome. You had a thank you for joining me. Thank you. Thank you for having me excited about this discussion. It should be good. We have a lot to dig into before we get there. Though I gave a brief, very brief, very high-level synopsis of where you are today and what you're looking to do. But what's your story like? You know, what are you doing now, and how, and how did you get there?",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":76,"children":77},{},[78],{"type":38,"value":79},"Yehuda Cagen  2:56  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":81,"children":82},{},[83],{"type":38,"value":84},"So I work, I've worked almost exclusively in B to B Tech. Starting in the mid 2000s and MSP, and then I've kind of worked my way towards supply chain integration software, and now I'm working for Stendio, which is cybersecurity software, GRC, cybersecurity software. So I've spent the majority of my career in B-to-P TECH. It happened because I was, I lived in, I'm, I still do, and I live, I live in Houston, and at the time, there wasn't a huge I was really into advertising, that kind of thing. And I like its creativity and the humor in and around it. The problem was, is that, or the challenge was, for me at the time, is that there weren't a whole lot of B to C kind of opportunities here in Houston, and so my career path just, you know, the trajectory went in the way of B to B Tech, and I've been in it ever since. It's been fun. ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":86,"children":87},{},[88],{"type":38,"value":89},"Kerry Guard  4:04  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":91,"children":92},{},[93],{"type":38,"value":94},"I feel like B to B Tech and cyber security in particular have sort of like a moat around it. Either you, you know, trip over a rock and, like, skip over the moat and land in cyber, or you go after it really, really hard. It's not something it's not generally something people find themselves in. It's an interesting it's an interesting niche. It's an interesting industry that not many people are in are familiar with. So can you tell us your story in particular, of how you found yourself in cyber in particular, sure.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":96,"children":97},{},[98],{"type":38,"value":99},"Yehuda Cagen  4:44  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":101,"children":102},{},[103],{"type":38,"value":104},"Well, when I worked for the MSP, I was, you know, we talked a lot about cybersecurity in general, right? Because, as things were starting to gravitate towards the cloud, it became very apparent that cybersecurity had to be taken very seriously. And so as the cloud. Became more commonplace. I would give seminars and webinars in and around the subject of cloud and internet security. And I took about a 767-year break when I moved to supply chain integration software. And then when I was asked to join Astenio, I had a good idea, a really good idea, of, kind of, some of the implications of cybersecurity. I didn't quite have the compliance side knowledge of it, which I later learned when I when I came on board, but that's kind of how I stumbled into it. I knew the components of a security program, you know, whether it is, you know, endpoint security or disaster recovery or business continuity, I would actually give, we live here in Houston, and so business continuity and disaster recovery are a really big topic down here due to the storms and hurricanes, things of that nature. So I had a familiarity with it, and so it seemed like a pretty natural fit for me. So that's kind of how I, if you will, stumbled into cyber security.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":106,"children":107},{},[108],{"type":38,"value":109},"Kerry Guard  6:11  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":111,"children":112},{},[113],{"type":38,"value":114},"It's interesting because you mentioned Houston a couple of times, and being in a remote world these days, location doesn't always come up that often, but it sounds like location for you has actually played an important role. So you've always grown up in Houston, or I grew up and moved to you there.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":116,"children":117},{},[118],{"type":38,"value":119},"Yehuda Cagen  6:30  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":121,"children":122},{},[123],{"type":38,"value":124},"No, no. Actually, my dad worked work, moved us here. And so my grandparents are all born in the Milwaukee, Wisconsin area, and to the chagrin of my extended family, I'm a Houston Texans, Astros, and Rockets fan, and I have no allegiance, or little allegiance, I should say, to the end of the Milwaukee area sports teams. So for the most part, I grew up here in Houston, with warmer weather.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":126,"children":127},{},[128],{"type":38,"value":129},"Kerry Guard  6:58  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":131,"children":132},{},[133],{"type":38,"value":134},"I don't blame them.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":136,"children":137},{},[138],{"type":38,"value":139},"Yehuda Cagen  7:02  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":141,"children":142},{},[143],{"type":38,"value":144},"It's, it's, it's very warm, much warmer weather, right? There. There are two, two. They say there are two seasons here in Houston: there's hot, and then there's hell, right? So those are the two seasons here. But, you know, it's a good place. It's kind of heck. It's got a big city, but it's kind of a small-town mentality. People are very friendly here, so you know? So I stuck around, and I'm now raising my family here.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":146,"children":147},{},[148],{"type":38,"value":149},"Kerry Guard  7:33  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":151,"children":152},{},[153],{"type":38,"value":154},"I love that, and it sounds, you know, when you talk about B to B and tech, Houston isn't generally a city that pops up. It's usually San Francisco, Seattle, and New York. It's not Texas. It's not any cities in Texas. So I find it really fascinating that not only is Houston sort of a booming area for B to B, but in particular cybersecurity, and the fact that you mentioned storms around that, too, I think is an interesting parallel and dichotomy as well.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":156,"children":157},{},[158],{"type":38,"value":159},"Kerry Guard  8:11  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":161,"children":162},{},[163],{"type":38,"value":164},"I'm sorry, go ahead. No, no, no, I want to hear, I want to hear what we've got going.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":166,"children":167},{},[168],{"type":38,"value":169},"Yehuda Cagen  8:14  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":171,"children":172},{},[173],{"type":38,"value":174},"Austin has a nice tech scene. Now, Austin, Texas, has a pretty nice tech scene. And actually, I, you know, the company I work for is based out of Virginia, and I actually work remotely. When they asked me, and this was towards the end of COVID, they asked me, Do you think you'd be able to manage a team remotely? And I told them, Look, honestly, before COVID, I know I probably thought I could, I was, but I couldn't give you any real answer whether as to whether I can actually do it. But, you know, since COVID happened and we had to go through it, so that's, that's, it actually gave rise to an opportunity based out of Virginia, which was great remote work.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":176,"children":177},{},[178],{"type":38,"value":179},"Kerry Guard  8:54  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":181,"children":182},{},[183],{"type":38,"value":184},"I am so excited is here to stay. We've been remote since 2011, when we started. So we've been remote since the beginning. COVID hit, and we were like, just another day at the office, apart from kids and pets and all the other things that are our feet. But the other day, we knew how to work remotely. And I'm so grateful that the world has caught up, because it is a wonderful there's pros and cons to both, for sure, but now that we can actually play in both spaces officially, I worked on a Microsoft campaign, like, I don't know, 2010 and it was, it was this idea of, it was something about without windows or without walls, and to be able to work from anywhere. And it was like this novel idea of, like, working from a park, like, What are you talking about? And it's here. It's finally here. And I'm, I'm grateful it's here for so many people who have made, you, know, made work more accessible, yeah, and flexible, yeah.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":186,"children":187},{},[188],{"type":38,"value":189},"Yehuda Cagen  9:58  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":191,"children":192},{},[193],{"type":38,"value":194},"I've spoken to a few people. Who actually are being mandated to go back in the office? And my thoughts, what are you on an assembly line? Like? What? Like? Why is it so necessary? But, you know, I know that, you know, different industries require different things, and I think also it has to do with, you know, the accountability that is set by management as well, of course, as the accountability of the individuals, right? So that's that's a huge component of it. But if you have someone, if you have a culture, if you have built a culture in your organization around accountability, and you hire people who are accountable, I don't see any reason why you wouldn't allow them to work remotely.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":196,"children":197},{},[198],{"type":38,"value":199},"Kerry Guard  10:38  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":201,"children":202},{},[203],{"type":38,"value":204},"Yehuda, we could have a whole conversation just about, yes, we totally could, because I do think that there's a ton to unpack in terms of how you set it up for success. You can't just, like, take what you did in person and then move it to re-vote, or vice versa. I don't recommend either of those things.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":206,"children":207},{},[208],{"type":38,"value":209},"Yehuda Cagen  10:56  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":211,"children":212},{},[213],{"type":38,"value":214},"Yep, yeah, I agree. Agree. Part that'll leave that to for part two. ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":216,"children":217},{},[218],{"type":38,"value":219},"Kerry Guard  11:01  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":221,"children":222},{},[223],{"type":38,"value":224},"Part two, I am here for it. Well, let's switch gears, or get back on track, or both. And I'd love to know for where you are now. You're in Houston, you're working for this company that's in Virginia. But what's hard for you right now, what's the challenge you're currently facing we've got going on over there?",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":226,"children":227},{},[228],{"type":38,"value":229},"Yehuda Cagen  11:20  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":231,"children":232},{},[233],{"type":38,"value":234},"Well, I mean, I think the one challenge that you face, ultimately, particularly when you're with you're in cyber security, is understanding your audience, right? I mean, and the audience in cyber security, I mean, people have become a lot more skeptical, especially as the marketplace becomes cluttered with messages and promises. But I think you can take that to the nth degree in the cybersecurity market people, I mean, those people, cybersecurity experts, are, I mean, they're trained to be skeptical. So if you, if you, if you can't bring your A game and your a message to that, that cybersecurity buyer or influencer, you're going to be in trouble.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":236,"children":237},{},[238],{"type":38,"value":239},"Kerry Guard  12:09  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":241,"children":242},{},[243],{"type":38,"value":244},"I feel like it's gotten worse in the sense that they are, they're, they're always skeptics, but they're even more skeptical as it relates to marketing and sales in particular.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":246,"children":247},{},[248],{"type":38,"value":249},"Yehuda Cagen  12:25  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":251,"children":252},{},[253],{"type":38,"value":254},"Is that fair? Yes, I like I said, I think, I think they have to be, you know, for their for the work that they do, they have to be very skeptical. And I think anything that they bring into their environment, half of it has to kind of, it has to be seen with a very skeptical eye, because, you know, one miss misstep or a series of can can lead to another series of missteps, which can have catastrophic consequences, unfortunately, and so, but I agree, right? So anything that they bring into their, you know, their inner influence, and that includes any tools or platforms or services that they take advantage of, they're going to be skeptical of it right off the bat. And so you really have to build that trust. You discussed building trust as part of the process, and I think that is key in any market, but in particular to cybersecurity.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":256,"children":257},{},[258],{"type":38,"value":259},"Kerry Guard  13:30  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":261,"children":262},{},[263],{"type":38,"value":264},"I'm gonna get on my pedestal, high horse, whatever you wanna call it, for a hot second to sort of lay the stage for this, because I think this is such an important topic, and something I'm pushing pretty hard, to the point where I actually was on another podcast, and then he quoted me directly. And I was like, Wow, that sounds that sounds really harsh when you, like, isolate it as a thing. But I think this is really true, especially for this audience of as marketing and sales, we are a collective who do outreach to have people buy our products and end up using them at the core of what it is that we do have used scaling tactics in a way that has burned bridges and made it worse, took a skeptical audience and made them extra skeptical.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":266,"children":267},{},[268],{"type":38,"value":269},"Yehuda Cagen  14:27  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":271,"children":272},{},[273],{"type":38,"value":274},"Yes, yes, and like they say, you know, it takes a long time to build trust, and it doesn't take much at all to lose that trust. So yeah, you got to be really careful. Yeah, we're there, yeah, but exactly, but at the same times, you can't work in fear, right? I mean that that doesn't necessarily help either. Now it's good to match, you know, mesh in a little bit of fear with some of the passion, but at the same time, if you understand your audience well, and you know that. Yes, certain messages resonate with that audience, then I don't think you have much to be fearful of. Now, obviously, there's going to be people that have a bad day, and they'll lash out on you, and you just have to kind of take it for what it is, right? They probably had a bad day, and then it you're going to, no matter what discipline you're in, you're going to come across challenges and problems and difficult people or people reacting, you know, negatively to what you're doing. And so it's not just a matter of avoiding those challenges, it's how you deal with those challenges. And so you deal with it the way you would any other challenge, right? If someone gets upset, then you own it, and you move on.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":276,"children":277},{},[278],{"type":38,"value":279},"Kerry Guard  15:43  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":281,"children":282},{},[283],{"type":38,"value":284},"And if it's only one or two people, like, if it's only a handful of people, yeah, you know, you take that with a grain of salt, you know, take that as you will, good to learn from it, but also, like, you don't need to react to it, versus an upheaval. We are not Netflix, trying to, you know, break into two parts and DVD versus I think that's really important. Let's talk about the ICP, because that's really what we're here talk about today. And let's start from the beginning of ideal customer profile. We love talking and acronyms for marketers. We make them up all day. Ideal customer profile. Let's talk. Let's break this into two parts. You have your ideal customer, and then what a profile is. So let's talk about what it means to be an ideal customer. What is an ideal customer? And how do you know that you're talking to an ideal customer?",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":286,"children":287},{},[288],{"type":38,"value":289},"Yehuda Cagen  16:42  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":291,"children":292},{},[293],{"type":38,"value":294},"Well, I mean the ideal customer profile, and I see it as the cornerstone of any marketing program, right, or any marketing campaign or plan. It's essentially understanding a specific segment within the market, and you know, and your message is basically based on that segment, and you're essentially telling your ideal client profile, or your ideal client, I should say, that you have a specific widget or platform or service that was created specifically just for you, right? And so that's why it's so critical. And I mean, I could take, I think we could take lessons from other industries, right? So we're typically B to B Tech, SAS, cyber security, but let's just, you know, I like to kind of blend a lot of what I do in B to B with some of other experiences and some of what I've read in terms of good marketing and companies that have really perfected the identification and the messaging to their ICP. So, in the case of a B, a good B to C example would be, here's kind of what I mean by the cornerstone of a marketing program. Imagine, imagine if Harley Davidson didn't have an ICP right, and then say, Oh, we just want to build a good mode of transportation for everyone. I mean, they wouldn't look anything near what they look like now. I mean, they kind of honed in on a segment of the population that was very passionate about the open road, very passionate about, you know, kind of their, their, you know, the way the machine has to work, and how they go about it, not just not an A to B. It's not just getting from A to B, right? I mean, if they just market it to the largest, largest segment of the population, they would be a totally different company. So that's what I'm saying. Like it has to be identifying that, that profile or that ideal client has to be the cornerstone of your marketing plan. Because if you don't, it's, you know, you just go into you keep a lot of self-doubt. You'll keep, keep going in many different directions. And then back to what we spoke about earlier, you might just take off some people, because it just doesn't resonate with them. ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":296,"children":297},{},[298],{"type":38,"value":299},"Kerry Guard  19:01  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":301,"children":302},{},[303],{"type":38,"value":304},"Yes, to the ticking off piece for sure. Let's talk about the brand. Because I love, excuse me, I was holding my tongue because I had, like, a million brands on, you know, that I was ready to, like, launch into space of, you know, who I, who identified their ideal customer, and, like, really, you know, leaned into that. But the fact that you came up with Harley Davidson is just so magical. Because one, it's not one that came to mind for me. And two, when you think of Harley Davidson, you think of you, I have to imagine the rest of the audience did what I did, where they painted a picture of the person who's probably a bit rough and tumble, got a beard, bandanna on his head, some awesome leather jacket, maybe with an eagle on the back, and like they are riding this hog down the highway and cruising like it's all they want to do. All. Day, every day, you're to your point. There's no destination. They just love on this bike, right? Like, we all painted that a similar picture. ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":306,"children":307},{},[308],{"type":38,"value":309},"Yehuda Cagen  20:15  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":311,"children":312},{},[313],{"type":38,"value":314},"And yes, like, yeah, you don't, you don't drive around in a Harley Davidson if you just want to, you know, skip traffic in Amsterdam or something, right? It just doesn't. It's just not, it's just not the persona. It's not the ITP.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":316,"children":317},{},[318],{"type":38,"value":319},"Kerry Guard  20:26  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":321,"children":322},{},[323],{"type":38,"value":324},"No, it's New Hampshire folks of live free or die, right? Like that, and in a good like, in the most, in the best way, I like, in the best, in the best way.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":326,"children":327},{},[328],{"type":38,"value":329},"Yehuda Cagen  20:41  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":331,"children":332},{},[333],{"type":38,"value":334},"And they can tell you. They can tell you what it is, right, every one of their customers, right, their clients.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":336,"children":337},{},[338],{"type":38,"value":339},"Kerry Guard  20:47  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":341,"children":342},{},[343],{"type":38,"value":344},"I have to believe, and I don't know, the story of Harley-Davidson. Now I want to go on this fact-finding mission, because I can't help myself, and I will, and it'll be magical. But I have to believe that it started with the person who built the company, where they probably had a similar persona themselves, where they saw themselves wanting to live this life, and they couldn't find it, and so they went out and built it.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":346,"children":347},{},[348],{"type":38,"value":349},"Yehuda Cagen  21:12  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":351,"children":352},{},[353],{"type":38,"value":354},"Yeah, I mean, it's like, like I said before, right? It's finding that segment of the market, you know, that in you telling that individual this service platform, widget, you know, bike with it was created specifically for you, right? This is who we created for, and this is why, and again, you just lean into their sensibilities, their philosophical viewpoints. I'm not, I don't know. I mean, there's a lot of talk these days around creating demand. Kind of hard to create demand, and we thought a huge budget, but you can certainly channel that demand, and kind of, like I said, lean into their sensibilities and what they're they're into, and what they believe. ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":356,"children":357},{},[358],{"type":38,"value":359},"Kerry Guard  21:56  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":361,"children":362},{},[363],{"type":38,"value":364},"I think there's this element that's been lost in the world, and I'd love to, I'd love your opinion on this, Yoda, because you've worked with some smaller companies. Smaller companies and startups, as well as bigger companies. Is that, and I love using the Harley Davidson scenario, because I feel like when you build a thing, you start to think about all the possibilities of what this thing could do, and you lose sight of why you built the thing to begin with. And I feel like, going back to the founder, is a lost piece in that a lost piece to that puzzle of like, well, why did you build it? What did you want from this? Yes, why does this thing exist? Right? You're the ICP once, tell me more.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":366,"children":367},{},[368],{"type":38,"value":369},"Yehuda Cagen  22:43  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":371,"children":372},{},[373],{"type":38,"value":374},"That's right, that's right. Well, I mean, also bear in mind, I mean, the ICP is not something that you just said on the front end of your of your marketing plan and that, and that just stays static for perpetuity. I mean, this something that's all you know, understand that a it has to be realistic, right? You can't just say, Well, I'm just going to, I'm going to start, I'm going to start trying to, let's say, pry customers away from the Harley Davidson. I'm going to create my own bike, right? Be realistic, obviously, and then understand that it can be fluid, right? It can be, and at times, it needs to be fluid, because there's going to be a lot, a little bit of trial and error, though. Again, you should probably do a little bit more market research beforehand, but there's you have to understand kind of where your customers are, and sometimes you'll learn things along the way that you didn't realize, and you might, and that might open the door for other customers, or other segments of it, of the population as well, like look at Arm And HAMMER Baking Soda right now, they found a niche in keeping their freezers fresh, like, Who would have thought, right, right? I mean, so it's now become a fresh baking soda has become a freshness, you know, it's kind of like it's competing with Febreze, or Febreze competing with it, right, in terms of keeping things fresh. So you have to be open to the you know, you can't just be very static. You have to be open to that, the idea that the ICP can be fluid, but, you know, stick with it. And then give yourself, I don't know, 12-18 months, whatever you think is required. And then build, build off of that, right? And set the pivoting, set goals for yourself, and kind of how you want, how long you want to stick with this, and how long you plan to stick with it, and then realize that, and then reassess and see whether you've you've really hit the mark to what extent, and whether you have to pivot a little bit. But I think there is something about, you know, being the ICP, and representing the ICP, and kind of what you would like to see in the market. And there's definitely some validity in that. But you also have to, you know, there are some people like, for example, I mentioned that I'm a Houston Astros fan, or Houston, you know, Texans fan. And, you know, we have, there are certain things that I that I believe that the Astros should. Do, and, you know, that kind of thing. But there are differences in opinion on that. And so you have to, even though you're fonder and you're very passionate about and you understand, at least what you feel is the target persona, you have to also be open to open to a different perspectives, or at least very, you know, varying perspectives at the same time without again, going too far out of that the confines of the ICP.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":376,"children":377},{},[378],{"type":38,"value":379},"Kerry Guard  25:28  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":381,"children":382},{},[383],{"type":38,"value":384},"Let's talk about so I mentioned one way to sort of identify your ICP, about going back to the founder, depending on how big or small you are. But let's talk about how you really uncover. You mentioned so many great examples of how things might accidentally pivot, like Arm and Hammer is a wonderful air fresher for your freezer and so but, but they didn't know that. That's not why they created it, right? So, in thinking about the ICP and the problems we solve for cybersecurity in particular, where do we start in really knowing who we should be marketing to?",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":386,"children":387},{},[388],{"type":38,"value":389},"Yehuda Cagen  26:09  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":391,"children":392},{},[393],{"type":38,"value":394},"Well, I think when you build the Yeah, so when you're building the company, or if Lisa, you're building the marketing program, or sales and marketing program, you have to understand, well, who is this for, right? I mean, everyone has to understand who their audience is, right? They say that you, if you try to market to everyone, you're marketing to no one. So you really have to understand, and you can't, you can't, when you look at this, and you do this analysis, you have, you obviously can't be in a vacuum. You have to recognize if there are others in this space, and there are others in this space, and particularly if they're established in this space, you gotta again that goes back to being realistic, right? If you want to go back to, let's say, the Harley Davidson analogy, it's gonna be hard. It'd be really tough to supplant Harley Davidson, right? So you say, well, well, then what other segment do I have, some motorbikes? You know, whatever what our segments could be, maybe it's off-road, right? Maybe it's, maybe it's just trying to get weave in and out of high traffic and high congested traffic areas, you know, whatever it is that you have to, sure, yeah, you're trying to, have to, you're trying to find the the area, or the segment of the population, or the second of the target audience, that that makes most sense to you and to what your platform strengths are, presuming that you've already built the platform, or you've built.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":396,"children":397},{},[398],{"type":38,"value":399},"Kerry Guard  27:30  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":401,"children":402},{},[403],{"type":38,"value":404},"Sure, you have a thing service, right? Sorry, you have a thing you're ready to market.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":406,"children":407},{},[408],{"type":38,"value":409},"Yehuda Cagen  27:37  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":411,"children":412},{},[413],{"type":38,"value":414},"Yeah, yeah, right. So you already have in place, then say, Okay, well, where do I? Where would I resonate most within this market? And obviously you can't be, you know, five people, unless you sell very high ticket items, right? It has to be a nice segment of the population, but also it has to kind of serve a need that is unserved. Otherwise, you get into high commoditization, and you don't want to be in that place, because it's hard to compete, you know, it's a race to the bottom if you want to just, you know, be the Walmart, or whatever your niche is, right? Because there's always going to be another knockoff, another Walmart, someone in China, building something else that's a lot cheaper. So it's just finding that area and then building on it. I, you know, what I like to do in particular. And this kind of speaks, maybe more of an Account Based Marketing, as opposed to, you know, ICP, protect in particular. But it is. It does introduce us to another acronym. So that's fun. ABM, right. You kind of start with, like a dream, a dream, let's say each, let's say sales rep. Because typically, the way I've seen it. Sales reps have always kind of sometimes predated marketing teams. I don't know why that is. Maybe they just, you know, typically, a lot of these cyber security or any kind of SaaS programs.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":416,"children":417},{},[418],{"type":38,"value":419},"Kerry Guard  28:51  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":421,"children":422},{},[423],{"type":38,"value":424},"Early, higher, yeah.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":426,"children":427},{},[428],{"type":38,"value":429},"Yehuda Cagen  28:52  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":431,"children":432},{},[433],{"type":38,"value":434},"Yeah, right. So they're an early hire. So maybe you just take a dream 200 or 100 200 and then go deep and wide on those that list in that particular segment, so you can, again, truly understand what their needs and wants are, and then you build off of that, so that you know that's what I would make recommend as a as a good start. And, just as important, when you're talking about the ICP, you also have to know which segment of the market not to market to and that will not appreciate what you have to offer. I mean, they may appreciate it, but you know, if you get to a point where it is, you've kind of charted into, you know, very cluttered waters, if you will, ever highly saturated markets, then again, you run the rest of become either commoditized or becoming, maybe perhaps a company or an organization or a vision that doesn't align with with a certain audience, and then you end up wasting sales reps time, you might even create a false sense of success, you know. Oh, look, look, all these opportunities. But it can ultimately lead to, you know. Again, wasting sales reps' time, poor sales forecasting, and then, you know, overall bad morale. Because then you start, you start questioning everything. So just as important of understanding who you are segmenting, you also want to understand and appreciate who you're not targeting.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":436,"children":437},{},[438],{"type":38,"value":439},"Kerry Guard  30:19  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":441,"children":442},{},[443],{"type":38,"value":444},"Let's double-click on that for a second, because there are two. Yeah, there are a couple of elements to that. It used to be a numbers game, right? Where it was like, We need CISOs. Let's market to all of them, and then we'll whittle down, and we'll get a handful of the ones who are the right ones. And to your point, Account-Based Marketing has absolutely flipped that on its head. It's like, well, let's stop trying to talk to everyone, and let's talk to the people who are really going to need this thing. There are a couple of challenges with that, though; there are challenges with both. One is you burn a lot of bridges on one side, which is going after every CISO, and then willing down to this will take a lot of time. You've got to muddle through a lot of crap. You definitely burn a lot of money that way. On the flip side, from the ABM perspective, you are honing in on your exact audience. What if it's very small, like there are pros and cons, right? Like, you're talking to the exact right people? Mm, hmm. What if they're not ready to buy right now? ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":446,"children":447},{},[448],{"type":38,"value":449},"Yehuda Cagen  31:27  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":451,"children":452},{},[453],{"type":38,"value":454},"Like, well, well, I mean, statistics suggest that most accounts, or most organizations, are not ready to buy right between three to 10% of the time, depending on, you know, the sales cycles, right? So that's when you have to start, you know, building. And we're going a little bit out of ICP, but, yeah, ICP, but yeah, I mean, sometimes if, again, you have to recognize, if it's a market of 150 you know, accounts or companies, it better be a high ticket item. And again, it has to align with sales goals, sales revenue goals, and growth goals, and everything like that. So you have to recognize at on front, the front end, you know, if you bake in at least some conservative close ratios, right, and say, like, we can get 10% of the market, or 10 we can close 30% of those that we speak to, right? And then you kind of work backward from that, from there. But you have to obviously be cognizant of it. And you said something interesting in terms of every CISO, right? So you have to also recognize, you know, who is the economic buyer, right? Who's signing off the deal, and who are the champ, who are the champions of the deal? Who is going to drive it, or who is going to ultimately be the champion of whatever service or software widget that you sell, right? So, you know, again, everyone likes to go straight to the CISO or straight to the CFO, right? Because they're economic buyer, but it's really critical to also, you know, not just segment the accounts or the companies, but also identifying the champion, a champion, not a championship. See, I'm talking about the Astros, and I'm thinking championship, but you have to identify the champion, and in also create messaging that appeals to those individuals that represent your ICP, because if you don't identify the champion, well, then you can't even make it to the CF the CISO, or the CFO or the the you're not going to make the shortlist to the economic buyer.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":456,"children":457},{},[458],{"type":38,"value":459},"Kerry Guard  33:21  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":461,"children":462},{},[463],{"type":38,"value":464},"It's true, and it makes sure it too, like if you're talking about, we're getting into Account Based Marketing here, but I think it's really critical. When you're talking about your ideal customer profile, it's not necessarily when you're talking. I know when we say, ICP, it sounds singular, ideal customer, singular profile, but the end dates what you're saying, Yehuda, it's actually profiles, and that each part of the organization is going is part of the buying process. It's no longer a single buyer. I don't know if I've ever was, but it definitely is not. Now. It's a committee that is harder. X exponentially harder. And so, really thinking about the different folks that touch this product, whether it's deeply like a practitioner versus a CFO who's just got to sign on the dotted line, you still need to think through the messaging of that and, oh yeah, try to negotiate with CFOs.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":466,"children":467},{},[468],{"type":38,"value":469},"Yehuda Cagen  34:25  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":471,"children":472},{},[473],{"type":38,"value":474},"Man, yeah, it's not easy. And, but you have to, like, not every persona. Let's say you have the champion, you have the Econ. That champion is, might be, let's say, in our space, might be a GRC, the head of compliance, head of security, head of it in some cases. And maybe the CISO or the CFO, in some instances, would be the economic buyer. And then there's the end user, right? And then there's everyone else. So not every persona is created equal, right? You got to focus on those championships, the champion. Here I go again. You got to focus. The champion, right? The champion is, it's, we're getting into baseball season, but you got to focus on the Champion. Just know what everyone else's role is, right? I mean, you can't ignore everyone else, but it's not the same message as everyone else. So if you have the champion, let's say, then who else is there? Right? There's, you have to know what their roles and capabilities are. And typically, if they're not the champion and they're in the decision-making process, then their role often, and their capability is often what is, maybe how to kill the deal. Like, you know, their role is almost like some like a sounding board and saying, what? Tell me why this is a bad idea, so that I don't take this risk. And you know, with this software, this platform, right? So if you know who the champion is, and then who are the potential deal killers, then you got to arm the champion with those you know ways to circumvent those objections, right? So again, different messaging, different materials, different approaches to different constituents within the organization.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":476,"children":477},{},[478],{"type":38,"value":479},"Kerry Guard  36:10  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":481,"children":482},{},[483],{"type":38,"value":484},"Okay, so here's what I heard you say: we have the champion, which is the ultimate person who's going to use this thing and has to figure out how to convince other people that they need it. Yes, you have the economic buyer who is going to sign on the dotted line and approve the thing. And then you have the naysayer, which wasn't your word, but I couldn't remember exactly your exact word, but the person who's coming in to figure out all the reasons why this thing is probably not a good idea. And so you have these three audiences that you have to help your champion, yes, navigate through the right?",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":486,"children":487},{},[488],{"type":38,"value":489},"Yehuda Cagen  36:49  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":491,"children":492},{},[493],{"type":38,"value":494},"Exactly, yeah, exactly. I love right. So you're not trying to give the same set of benefits and say, and like you're talking to the champion, and you give them a set of benefits that you know resonate with them. You're not going to take that same set of benefits and speak to other constituents that whose role is essentially to potentially kill the deal. Right? You're going to, you're going to start talking about objections and why you wouldn't, and then responses for why you would, right?",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":496,"children":497},{},[498],{"type":38,"value":499},"Kerry Guard  37:14  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":501,"children":502},{},[503],{"type":38,"value":504},"So, objections. Man, talk about objections enough. ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":506,"children":507},{},[508],{"type":38,"value":509},"Yehuda Cagen  37:20  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":511,"children":512},{},[513],{"type":38,"value":514},"I don't think, especially in a B-to-B sale, there's always, I mean, because not every audience falls into the same category, right? I mean, even like you just take it in generalities. Forget about cybersecurity, necessarily. C-suite, they're typically looking towards the future. They're looking okay, new way versus old way, right? That kind of thing, you know, those that are maybe in the mid level, you know, mid level managers, mid level management, they want things that are easy to implement, right? They want ways to know that it actually works, right? Because they're, you know, this is typically the champion in many cases, but not always. And so they want to make sure that, you know, since they put, you know, it's their it's their job on the line in many cases, and then there's the end users, right there. They're making the salami or the donuts or whatever, right analogy you're trying to use, right? So for them, you know, sometimes they're not, they may not be decision makers, but those days, those may be how to work it, right? They know, right? They have, they have to know how to work it, because then, then you get into customer attrition or client attrition, and you know, definitely don't want that.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":516,"children":517},{},[518],{"type":38,"value":519},"Kerry Guard  38:26  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":521,"children":522},{},[523],{"type":38,"value":524},"Anyway, I actually went to battle. No, this is important. This is this is critical, because I actually went to battle. We were working with a company, and they wanted to keep working with us. And I was like, the only way we can keep working with you at this point, because it is if you give us somebody, a person who can literally train up my new people, because we've had turnover, and learning your product has been really tricky. So unless you can give me a person who can train them, I cannot redo with your product like that's and that's an end user, and then, like my end users, the people who were coming on board to use this thing had no say in this being the thing that they were going to use, but they had to know how to use it. I think that's so important. And something we're absolutely like, once the once the sale happens, it's like, we're good to go. And it's like, in a fast product, you are not good to go,",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":526,"children":527},{},[528],{"type":38,"value":529},"Yehuda Cagen  39:23  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":531,"children":532},{},[533],{"type":38,"value":534},"No more than anything, sales, marketing, and now CS, right, customer success have to all kinds of work in unison, and they all have to work off of each other, and they'll have to feed off of each other. So again, many different constituencies, constituents within the buying committee, if you will. And so you have to recognize who they are and what messages to send to those individuals, or to present to those individuals, or to present to the champion, to present to those individuals.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":536,"children":537},{},[538],{"type":38,"value":539},"Kerry Guard  39:53  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":541,"children":542},{},[543],{"type":38,"value":544},"And I think this is really helpful, because if you're narrowing it down to this, this helps you want to narrow it down. Right? Like, if you're just going after one segment, and that's you're just gonna go after all of them and blast them, that's one way to play it. Or even better, this makes it this makes a play at why Account Based Marketing is so critical to those higher price ticket items. Because if you really identify who is going to buy from you based off who's bought from you in the past. Know who your champions are of who's pushing the product through. So for us as a marketing agency, right? It's the VP. The VP is ultimately saying, I need, I need a good agency that's going to help my team do better, and then I can get across to the CMO, ultimately, like they're the champion. But we got to work with their managers to make sure that they want to work with us, that like, at the end of the day, they're the end user who's got to like, like us, and the CMOS got to feel like we're going to deliver on our promises, right? But it's the VP that's ultimately our champion in that, and we got to help them, you know, feel like they're making a good decision because it's their neck on the line. I think that's critical. And what gets lost is like it's not just having a champion to give them the right messaging to push this thing through. It's like they're putting themselves on the line to say, this is the product we should use. And here's why. Because if it doesn't work out, or something goes horribly wrong, it's them on the line for IT and security.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":546,"children":547},{},[548],{"type":38,"value":549},"Yehuda Cagen  41:23  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":551,"children":552},{},[553],{"type":38,"value":554},"That's right. You have to recognize their concerns and worries right now, then arm them right, so that's particularly the champions, I mean, in talking about those messages, I remember once, I think it was the beginning of COVID. Yeah, it definitely wasn't COVID. We ran a kind of cold email campaign. This is what background is in the supply chain integration software. And we didn't just target like our key ICP accounts, right? And we didn't just target different personas within the organization, but we also identified those types of companies that who may be suffering as a result of the pandemic, and those who may be succeeding as a result of the pandemic. And so, I think, all in all, we had like 14 different messages, right? So we have like different types of accounts, right to different segments within the within the population. So in the same supply chain, you often have, you know, buyers slash retailers, and then suppliers slash manufacturers. Then you have, then you have those within those areas that who are succeeding versus those that were, you know, probably suffering as a result of the like succeeding may have been, let's say, grocery or pharmaceuticals, or, you know, very, very essential. So those who may have been suffering may have been, you know, suits, right, right, formal wear, right? No one was buying foreign wear when the first, you know, six months of COVID, probably longer, so and so we identified different messaging that would where we hope would resonate with them. And I think it, like I said, 14 different messages. And yes, it takes a lot more time, or considerably more time on the front end, but it can, it can wait. It can save a lot on the back end, in terms of bang your head. Why aren't people, why message messaging resonating? Why are sales cycles so long? Why is it taking so much time to get a return on my investment? I think, I think I, if I recall correctly, you know that that campaign added I quarter million dollars of close revenue. So it's really important. It's really critical to kind of look at it and be as specific as possible. But again, you know, you don't have to say, Okay, we don't have to go that broad, right? 14 different messages, right? Because, again, some individuals within your, you know, within the corporate hierarchy, if you will, they don't really, necessarily hear it. They may need to overcome obstacles. So that's, you know, that's that's later on in the sales cycle, but just recognize kind of who you're talking to and what resonates most with them. ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":556,"children":557},{},[558],{"type":38,"value":559},"Kerry Guard  43:50  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":561,"children":562},{},[563],{"type":38,"value":564},"Let's talk about that for a second, because it is a huge lift when you start slicing and dicing, and you're also taking a budget that you're slicing and dicing, right? So the more you divvy up this, these resources, the more you feel like you need. Is that true? Or because you're being so thoughtful and specific, it actually a smaller budget can go a longer way.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":566,"children":567},{},[568],{"type":38,"value":569},"Yehuda Cagen  44:19  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":571,"children":572},{},[573],{"type":38,"value":574},"I think you could be pretty creative with the budget, right? And let's take, you know, like, for example, if you're, if you have, like a, like a LinkedIn, like a LinkedIn type of campaign or paid LinkedIn, right? You're paying for people to, you know, to get in front of people, right? So that can, that's budget can get away from you really quickly. So you want to say maybe, all right, let's focus on the champions first, and then once we get later in the sales cycle, we can provide certain materials where that can satisfy some of the other constituents in the hiring committee, sorry, the buying committee, right? Whereas email, like I said, I mean, there wasn't really a whole lot in terms of, I mean, there was a little bit more time. But, like. I said, I think it turned out to be worthwhile in terms of the time commitment, but yeah, I mean, definitely there, you have to recognize what you what you feel that you can, you know, in terms of return on investment, whether it's a personnel investment or ad spend, you know, hiring consultancies or hiring different coaches or whomever right to kind of get you on the right track. But again, understand who you're talking understanding who you're marketing to, or who you're speaking to. I don't think you can. You don't want to skimp on that. ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":576,"children":577},{},[578],{"type":38,"value":579},"Kerry Guard  45:43  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":581,"children":582},{},[583],{"type":38,"value":584},"You just don't know, especially if it's small, and like, you only have so many people shocked you. So if you only so many champions, you don't want to burn those bridges. So being really intentional and understanding about what their",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":586,"children":587},{},[588],{"type":38,"value":589},"Yehuda Cagen  45:55  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":591,"children":592},{},[593],{"type":38,"value":594},"Needs are, and ultimately, it makes it easier. Because, let's say I, you know, there's, I've seen a lot of, like, copywriters and those that, you know, a much, much of their messaging, and they kind of get cutesy phrased on their websites. It's a lot of crossing out, and kind of, you know, working with the messaging, how well it works, how well it doesn't work, what what is extraneous, what is what do we absolutely need? And that becomes so much easier when you have that. Let's say you have that. You know that Harley Davidson person in mind, right? Because you're not gonna, you might be able to weave in and out of traffic. You might be able to take it off-road. But you're not talking to those people, right? You're talking to people just want to hit the open road and, you know, miss the days of Route 66, right? Or whatever it is, right? So, right? You know, think about the days, yeah, so you have a method, and it makes that process a lot easier. Yeah, Nothing's easy, but it simplifies it.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":596,"children":597},{},[598],{"type":38,"value":599},"Kerry Guard  46:53  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":601,"children":602},{},[603],{"type":38,"value":604},"When you really can talk, when you really can talk to people who want to live the dream of whatever it is you're promising? Yeah, oh my gosh. I know we're using a B to C example, but I think we there's so much we can learn from from B to B, from B to C, of how to do a better job of storytelling, connecting with our audience, and helping them feel like there's a light at the end of the tunnel of whatever problem they have that we're there to solve. How many times do we do things the hard way, not knowing that there's an easier way in a tool out, right? Like, yeah, so many things. How many, be honest? Yehuda, how many tabs you have open right now of Excel sheets and data?",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":606,"children":607},{},[608],{"type":38,"value":609},"Yehuda Cagen  47:37  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":611,"children":612},{},[613],{"type":38,"value":614},"Too many likes, I actually have. I actually have, like, not just tabs on my, on my Chrome, but like, different sets of tabs based on whatever, whatever I'm working on, right? So there's, you know, ICP tabs, right? So that that includes, you know, notes on ICP notes, ICP documentation, right? And then there's competitor tabs, right? We're looking at the competitors, and there are all these different types, and there's paid, paid ads, and organic, right? So that can go straight to it. So yes, too, too many tabs, for sure.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":616,"children":617},{},[618],{"type":38,"value":619},"Kerry Guard  48:16  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":621,"children":622},{},[623],{"type":38,"value":624},"We have to believe that there's maybe a better way, but maybe there's not, and that's just the world we're in right now. But that's how our audience feels, right, like so painting that picture for them of less tabs and less headaches and less, you know, what the B to C community definitely has unlocked. And we're we're behind what we're catching up.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":626,"children":627},{},[628],{"type":38,"value":629},"Yehuda Cagen  48:34  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":631,"children":632},{},[633],{"type":38,"value":634},"Ultimately, you're just talking, yeah, exactly. Ultimately, you're talking to people. Still, I don't think AI is advanced enough for people to make those that's for to have aI make those decisions for you, though, might get there, but by the same time, you got to you got to be able to train the AI, but in any way. But when it comes down to it, I think a mistake that some B to B marketers might make is they ultimately in they're saying, Well, that's what, that's better for B to C, right? And that's better for this. But, you know, a lot of the B to C practices gave rise to some of the B to B marketing practices. And what happened is we became, so we became maybe, maybe that's an instance where we came too focused on, well, we're on B to B. So therefore, I have to speak in a matter that that has acronyms and jargon and everything like that, and that's where you and it just that doesn't work either, right? So just because 1b's to C and one's 1b's to B, you're ultimately talking to humans that are making these decisions, and you have to, again, lean into those, those them and their sensibilities and their philosophical viewpoints and everything that matters to them. ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":636,"children":637},{},[638],{"type":38,"value":639},"Kerry Guard  49:44  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":641,"children":642},{},[643],{"type":38,"value":644},"Everything that matters to them so much. Yes, that's what I heard you say in a recap, and then giving you a chance to double down, Kerry, if I'm wrong or say something that maybe I missed. But really, what I'm hearing you say is, when you're trying to identify your ideal customer, start very high level. What are the accounts? Companies that are going to make the most sense of who's buying your product. And you can look at your existing customers, you can go back to the founder to understand what it was they were trying to do, but really understanding, like from a B to B perspective, who are the accounts, and then from there, identifying your champion, who is going to ultimately be able to make the decision on this thing, knowing that they are going to need a committee around them, but like, who's going to who's going to be the voice inside the company to say this is a product for me, and here is why. And then from there, identifying your end users who you're going to need to make friends with, because they need to love this thing once they're once they're making it happen to the C suite, who has to sign off, and you know, whether that's both the CISO and the CFO to the naysayers are going to come in and poke those holes and poke the bear and say, Do we really, though, but do we and really dialing in your messaging for all those audiences, but starting from the top, from those accounts, and then digging into your champion, and then beyond. In terms of who your ideal customer profiles are. Did I miss anything there, or hear anything you want to double down on? Help us. You're muted. Unmute yourself. Let's go. You're muted. You're muted.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":646,"children":647},{},[648],{"type":38,"value":649},"Yehuda Cagen  51:19  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":651,"children":652},{},[653],{"type":38,"value":654},"Sorry. There we go. Though I think you got it right. And the only thing that I would add to that is you've got to arm your champion, right, with the right materials, with the right objection handling, make sure that you make them the hero, right? That's critical. That's a critical component. You can't just recognize what those others are. You know that there are other constituents in the buying committee, but you have to arm them as well. So I think that's something that should be noted, as well. When you're building that ICP, you have to be on record. You have to recognize the competition, right? Again, you're not living it. You're not working in a vacuum, and if they've got strangleholds on it, then you've got to find a way. You know, either you can try to reposition, reposition the competition, like, okay, so I'll take, I'll show you an example of that repositioning up the competition. The competition would again be B to C, but I'll give another B to b1. Seven Up became the Un-Cola, whatever that means, right? But it was successful, right? And then, but it was successful because, you know, people that don't like the, maybe the heaviness of cola, it's a little lighter, right? It's, you know, so that's seven up. And then go back to, you know, one of the key kinds of cloud companies? One of the original Salesforce.com, they, you know, they used to have a software with an X through it, where they unsoft for a company, because you don't need to install software. You don't need to have experts that understand how to install and, you know, and implement the software. It's very intuitive. It's based, it's, it's, it's hosted in the cloud, right? So you can also reposition the competition. But what the thing I would add is that you have to make sure to take the the understand the competitive landscape as well as you're finding your ICP, and, you know, positioning your company within that ICP, and nothing else should matter after you've done that.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":656,"children":657},{},[658],{"type":38,"value":659},"Kerry Guard  53:20  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":661,"children":662},{},[663],{"type":38,"value":664},"Those are things. Yeah, yeah. I love that. I think that's a wonderful triangulation of the of really understanding what your customers up against. You need. You need those competitive you need the competitive landscape. You don't understand the negative space in which you play. And you need to understand what problems you solve for your customer, and then arming that champion to bring that all into the company. Yeah, yeah. Messaging is you got it is key. Your differentiation is key. It's so hard. We are not trying to show up and say you this is easy. You got this. We are here to say. We are here to help. So, Yehuda, if people want to understand more, and they have questions, and they want to say, yes, I want to do this, tell me more. Where can they find you? To do that?",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":666,"children":667},{},[668],{"type":38,"value":669},"Yehuda Cagen  54:09  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":671,"children":672},{},[673],{"type":38,"value":674},"Oh, they can find me on LinkedIn. It's yeah, they can find me on LinkedIn. I also work for a Sten do right now. So they can, they can find me through astenio At, y, C, A, G, E N, at astenio, s, o, s, t, e n, d, I, o.com, but you know, LinkedIn is, you know, if it's just generic types of questions, then, you know, feel free to hit me up on on LinkedIn, and I'd be happy to provide any any guidance that I could I really enjoy this conversation, and I I enjoy doing this, doing this kind of thing, and talking marketing Absolutely.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":676,"children":677},{},[678],{"type":38,"value":679},"Kerry Guard  54:49  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":681,"children":682},{},[683],{"type":38,"value":684},"So we're here for Yes, yes. We need to, you know, that's one of the things that I really loved about the cybersecurity community, in particular, is that we are all in this together. From a marketing standpoint, we're all trying to figure it out. We're all trying to learn together. There is no secret sauce, or, I'm afraid, to give things away. It's here it is. Let me know. Here it is.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":686,"children":687},{},[688],{"type":38,"value":689},"Yehuda Cagen  55:12  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":691,"children":692},{},[693],{"type":38,"value":694},"Exactly, exactly. And again, if you're dealing, if you're talking to cybersecurity, above everything else, know. If you know your ICP, you know that you cannot, Bs, then you cannot fluff your way into a conversation, right? Be real with them. You have to be real with them. Absolutely, that real, human, genuine, truthful, right? Because there's no other way to build trust, particularly with them, but in general, of course, as well, right? People are too skeptical these days.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":696,"children":697},{},[698],{"type":38,"value":699},"Kerry Guard  55:44  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":701,"children":702},{},[703],{"type":38,"value":704},"Yeah, the true thing. We could unpack that all day long. Well, Yehuda, before we close out, thank you for letting people know where to find you. But you're more than a marketer. You, too, are a human, and I love to know that, for 2024, we're still in the first half of the year. It's still early enough, COVID-19. We figured out how to live with it, but we are through the worst of it, and now we're on the horizon. So what are you most looking forward to in the year to come? ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":706,"children":707},{},[708],{"type":38,"value":709},"Yehuda Cagen  56:18  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":711,"children":712},{},[713],{"type":38,"value":714},"Are you saying beyond marketing or",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":716,"children":717},{},[718],{"type":38,"value":719},"Kerry Guard  56:21  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":721,"children":722},{},[723],{"type":38,"value":724},"yeah, life,",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":726,"children":727},{},[728],{"type":38,"value":729},"Yehuda Cagen  56:23  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":731,"children":732},{},[733],{"type":38,"value":734},"life, okay. I mean, sorry,",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":736,"children":737},{},[738],{"type":38,"value":739},"Kerry Guard  56:27  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":741,"children":742},{},[743],{"type":38,"value":744},"yeah. Life,",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":746,"children":747},{},[748],{"type":38,"value":749},"Yehuda Cagen  56:28  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":751,"children":752},{},[753],{"type":38,"value":754},"Yeah. I mean, I think, I think there's, there's, we talked a little bit about, you know, some of the positive outcomes of COVID and working remotely and Zoom and things like that. I think one of the things that I really like about what you've done and reached out to me, and like you said, everyone kind of helping out each other. I'm looking forward to kind of continuing conversations, not necessarily just with like-minded individuals, though that is a good marketing approach, but even those that may not agree with you. I think sometimes some of the negative ramifications of remote and remote working or remote communication is that you don't get really to kind of see different perspectives, particularly with social media, with the algorithms to keep you on there. You know, things polarized. So I'm looking forward to ways to connect with other people, whether or not they agree with me, and how things are going, and getting other perspectives. I mean that that is something I mean beyond sports, beyond watching the rest of Kerry's enthusiasm and last season, those are a few things. But just as a general rule, I'm really looking forward. I think it's really critical, and particularly as we kind of, so to speak, hide behind screens, right? And, you know, we can feel like we have a little bit of bravado, and we can kind of dig our heels in; again, that's that can be good for marketing. But you know, beyond that, and on a human level, and you mentioned a human level, I think we have to sometimes understand the diversity of thoughts, right? And what people come from different perspectives, and understand where they're coming from. Because I think the you know, when you stop having that conversation, everyone's, everyone's going to be tribal anyway, right? But if you can, if you can get those tribes to kind of understand where the other is coming from, I'm looking forward to, forward to a year that that people finally get to understand, you know, and come to understand each other, as opposed to just, you know, digging their heels in and feeling that their their way is the best, right? I That's kind of what I'm looking forward to again, beyond my sports teams, you know, Kerry's enthusiasm, all those cool things, and everything. With regard to my family, I mean, I'm looking forward to a good, happy, healthy, successful 2024, but I would like to see a little bit more of that, to be honest.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":756,"children":757},{},[758],{"type":38,"value":759},"Kerry Guard  58:51  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":761,"children":762},{},[763],{"type":38,"value":764},"Yes, oh my gosh, less polarization and more seeking to understand, absolutely yes, I am so here for that. If you are going to be at the Cybersecurity Marketing Con, I will be there in person. And if you are there, you had a love; I would love to have some more in-person conversations to unpack that. And if you're going to be there in person, those who are listening, come find me if you want to have honest conversations, like you just talked about. I am here for it. Yes, that. And having them in person, I think, just really opens up the space to not hide behind those screens, not hide behind texting and words, but to actually, like, really sit with our human and unpack, unpack it.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":766,"children":767},{},[768],{"type":38,"value":769},"Yehuda Cagen  59:35  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":771,"children":772},{},[773],{"type":38,"value":774},"Ah, exactly, exactly, and help each other out. Yeah, help each other out.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":776,"children":777},{},[778],{"type":38,"value":779},"Kerry Guard  59:41  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":781,"children":782},{},[783],{"type":38,"value":784},"We're all in this same LinkedIn, cybersecurity, B2B marketing space together, and the only way out is to build each other up. Yes to that.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":786,"children":787},{},[788],{"type":38,"value":789},"Unknown Speaker  59:50  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":791,"children":792},{},[793],{"type":38,"value":794},"Yes, yes, absolutely. I'm on board.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":796,"children":797},{},[798],{"type":38,"value":799},"Kerry Guard  59:56  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":801,"children":802},{},[803],{"type":38,"value":804},"I love it. I love it. Well, we are gonna have a part two, because. There are definitely some topics here that we have left unfinished, and I recognize that, but thank you all for hanging in there with us. Yehuda, I'm so grateful for this conversation. Thank you.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":806,"children":807},{},[808],{"type":38,"value":809},"Yehuda Cagen  1:00:09  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":811,"children":812},{},[813],{"type":38,"value":814},"Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. This was a lot of fun.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":816,"children":817},{},[818],{"type":38,"value":819},"Kerry Guard  1:00:12  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":821,"children":822},{},[823],{"type":38,"value":824},"This episode was brought to you by mkg marketing, the digital marketing agency that helps complex brands build trust with complex audiences via SEO and digital ads, complex brands like Extra Hub Networks, a cybersecurity marketing company who mkg went on a seven-year journey that culminated in a $900 million exit in Bain Capital and Crosspoint Ventures. It's hosted by me, Kerry Guard, CEO of MKG Marketing. And if you're a B2B digital marketing leader in tech and you like to be a guest, to unpack great topics like we had today, I would love to have you come find me. Let's hang out. Yehuda, thank you again.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":826,"children":827},{},[828],{"type":38,"value":829},"Yehuda Cagen  1:00:50  ",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":831,"children":832},{},[833],{"type":38,"value":834},"Thank you. Thanks so much for having me.",{"title":7,"searchDepth":836,"depth":836,"links":837},2,[838,839],{"id":31,"depth":836,"text":39},{"id":48,"depth":836,"text":54},"markdown","content:podcasts:marketing-leaders:icp-isnt-static-heres-how-to-get-it-right.md","content","podcasts/marketing-leaders/icp-isnt-static-heres-how-to-get-it-right.md","podcasts/marketing-leaders/icp-isnt-static-heres-how-to-get-it-right","md",[847,1126,1561,1940,2228],{"_path":848,"_dir":849,"_draft":6,"_partial":6,"_locale":7,"title":850,"description":851,"_schema":852,"authors":853,"date":854,"img":855,"imgAlt":856,"body":857,"_type":840,"_id":1122,"_source":842,"_file":1123,"_stem":1124,"_extension":845,"category":849,"minutes":1125},"/blog/seo/the-invisibility-trap-why-page-1-ranking-is-failing-the-ai-agent-test","seo","The Invisibility Trap - Why Page 1 Ranking is Failing the AI-Agent Test","Your SEO metrics are green, but your pipeline is flat. Here is how to stop chasing clicks and start winning the AI Overview.\n","default",[],"2026-04-08T17:59:00Z","/images/blog/mkg-blog-the-invisibility-trap-hero-image.webp","The Invisibility Trap",{"type":25,"children":858,"toc":1112},[859,864,869,874,879,893,902,907,912,917,926,931,936,941,950,955,975,985,994,999,1004,1009,1018,1023,1028,1033,1037,1046,1051,1056,1061,1066,1075,1080,1085,1090,1099,1104,1109],{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":860,"children":861},{},[862],{"type":38,"value":863},"For a decade, Page 1 was the promised land. If you held a top-three spot for your core commercial keywords, the math was simple: high rankings equaled high traffic, which equaled a healthy pipeline. You could take those green arrows in your SEO dashboard to the board and confidently declare victory.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":865,"children":866},{},[867],{"type":38,"value":868},"But in 2026, that math is broken. We’ve entered the era of the Invisibility Trap.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":870,"children":871},{},[872],{"type":38,"value":873},"Today, B2B marketing teams are reporting a baffling paradox: their keyword rankings are at an all-time high, yet their organic lead flow is flat—or worse, declining. Traditional SEO metrics have become a vanity project. While you’re celebrating a #1 ranking, AI Overviews (SVO) and generative agents are capturing your prospect's intent before they ever have a reason to click your link.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":875,"children":876},{},[877],{"type":38,"value":878},"Your audience isn't scrolling past you; they are getting the answer they need from an AI-generated summary that has scraped your expertise and served it up without the referral credit. If your strategy is still built on Keyword Tracking, you are effectively invisible to the agents that now gatekeep the B2B buyer’s journey. At MKG, we speak like a senior strategist who’s been in the mess and knows how to clear the fog. We know that marketing-muddled metrics won't save a stalling pipeline. It’s time to get your brain back.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":880,"children":881},{},[882,886],{"type":28,"tag":883,"props":884,"children":885},"br",{},[],{"type":28,"tag":887,"props":888,"children":892},"img",{"height":889,"width":890,"src":891},1536,2816,"/uploads/mkg-blog-the-invisibility-trap-image-1.png",[],{"type":28,"tag":29,"props":894,"children":896},{"id":895},"the-death-of-the-click-and-the-rise-of-the-agent",[897],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":898,"children":899},{},[900],{"type":38,"value":901},"The Death of the Click and the Rise of the Agent",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":903,"children":904},{},[905],{"type":38,"value":906},"The B2B buyer has changed. They are no longer interested in opening multiple tabs while they hunt through ten different blue links to find a lead-scoring model or a B2B tech stack audit. They are asking LLMs to do the heavy lifting for them. When a prospect asks, \"What are the best lead scoring models for Series B SaaS?\", they aren't looking for a list of blogs; they are looking for a definitive answer.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":908,"children":909},{},[910],{"type":38,"value":911},"If an AI Overview provides that answer using your data but fails to cite you—or worse, cites your competitor—you’ve lost. Traditional SEO was about traffic; Search Visibility Optimization (SVO) is about authority.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":913,"children":914},{},[915],{"type":38,"value":916},"We see overwhelmed marketers meeting this challenge with more of the same: more keywords, more blogs, more \"B2B brochure\" content. But you don't need another channel; you need a compounding rhythm. You need to shift from being a link to being an entity that the AI recognizes as the primary source of truth. We have our systems dialed, our values straight, and our heads on.",{"type":28,"tag":29,"props":918,"children":920},{"id":919},"shifting-from-keywords-to-entity-visibility",[921],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":922,"children":923},{},[924],{"type":38,"value":925},"Shifting from Keywords to Entity Visibility",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":927,"children":928},{},[929],{"type":38,"value":930},"In the mkgOS, we don't talk in trends; we talk in tactics and systems. To escape the Invisibility Trap, we use the Knowledge pillar of our system to move beyond the Keyword Tracking of the past. This isn't just about being strategic, not sterile; it’s about B2B Generative Engine Optimization.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":932,"children":933},{},[934],{"type":38,"value":935},"AI agents don't just read keywords; they map entities and relationships. They are looking for the senior strategist voice—the one who has done the reps and knows the acronyms. To win the AI Overview Ranking, your brand must be institutionalized as the definitive source in the LLM’s training data and real-time search index.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":937,"children":938},{},[939],{"type":38,"value":940},"This requires a fundamental shift in how you build content. We lead with insight, not ego. Instead of asking \"What keywords should we rank for?\", we ask \"What unique information gain are we providing that an LLM can't hallucinate?\" We skip the fluff.",{"type":28,"tag":29,"props":942,"children":944},{"id":943},"institutionalizing-authority-via-the-mkgos",[945],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":946,"children":947},{},[948],{"type":38,"value":949},"Institutionalizing Authority via the mkgOS",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":951,"children":952},{},[953],{"type":38,"value":954},"The mkgOS (Tech + Strategy) approach is built for humans but proven in dashboards. When we tackle SVO, we aren't just \"polishing\" your content; we are re-engineering your digital footprint to be AI-Agent ready. This involves three core tactical shifts:",{"type":28,"tag":956,"props":957,"children":958},"ul",{},[959,965,970],{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":961,"children":962},"li",{},[963],{"type":38,"value":964},"Entity-First Content Architecture: We stop treating pages as isolated islands. We build a web of interconnected entities that define your expertise.",{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":966,"children":967},{},[968],{"type":38,"value":969},"The Accountability of Citations: We ensure your data is so specific and crisp that an AI agent has no choice but to cite you as the primary source.",{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":971,"children":972},{},[973],{"type":38,"value":974},"Operator Energy in Metadata: We speak fluently in ops because we live in operations. From Asana to OKRs, we apply technical rigor to your schema and backend data structures so LLMs can ingest your insights with zero friction.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":976,"children":977},{},[978,981],{"type":28,"tag":883,"props":979,"children":980},{},[],{"type":28,"tag":887,"props":982,"children":984},{"height":889,"width":890,"src":983},"/uploads/mkg-blog-the-invisibility-trap-image-2.png",[],{"type":28,"tag":29,"props":986,"children":988},{"id":987},"why-volume-is-a-random-act-of-marketing",[989],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":990,"children":991},{},[992],{"type":38,"value":993},"Why Volume is a Random Act of Marketing",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":995,"children":996},{},[997],{"type":38,"value":998},"Most SEO strategies in 2026 are Random Acts of Marketing dressed up in expensive reporting tools. They focus on volume over value. If you’re experiencing tactical inefficiencies where your traffic is up but your demo requests are down, you are likely a victim of the content inflation crisis.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1000,"children":1001},{},[1002],{"type":38,"value":1003},"AI agents are trained to filter out fluff. If your content sounds like a generic B2B brochure, the agent will summarize the basic points and move on. However, if your content provides specific, field-tested tactics and unique operational insights, you add real value that an AI can recognize and prioritize.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1005,"children":1006},{},[1007],{"type":38,"value":1008},"We show personality through accuracy and tone, not through forced jokes or loud branding. 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This allows ChatGPT to provide local recommendations (like \"best coffee near me\"), putting it in direct competition with Google Maps for local intent.",{"type":28,"tag":29,"props":1362,"children":1364},{"id":1363},"strategic-implications-for-leaders",[1365],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":1366,"children":1367},{},[1368],{"type":38,"value":1369},"Strategic Implications for Leaders",{"type":28,"tag":1371,"props":1372,"children":1374},"h3",{"id":1373},"what-to-ignore",[1375],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":1376,"children":1377},{},[1378],{"type":38,"value":1379},"What to ignore:",{"type":28,"tag":956,"props":1381,"children":1382},{},[1383],{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":1384,"children":1385},{},[1386,1391,1393,1399],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":1387,"children":1388},{},[1389],{"type":38,"value":1390},"Keyword-Only Reporting:",{"type":38,"value":1392}," Stop obsessing over being \"Position 1\" for a specific word. 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High rankings are no longer enough; you must be ",{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":1475,"children":1476},{},[1477],{"type":38,"value":1478},"citeable.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1480,"children":1481},{},[1482],{"type":38,"value":1483},"MKG helps VC-backed companies bridge this gap with:",{"type":28,"tag":956,"props":1485,"children":1486},{},[1487,1497,1507],{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":1488,"children":1489},{},[1490,1495],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":1491,"children":1492},{},[1493],{"type":38,"value":1494},"GEO/AEO Gap Analysis:",{"type":38,"value":1496}," We find exactly where AI is ignoring your brand and fix it.",{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":1498,"children":1499},{},[1500,1505],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":1501,"children":1502},{},[1503],{"type":38,"value":1504},"Technical Entity Guardrails:",{"type":38,"value":1506}," We structure your site so AI models can read and trust your data instantly.",{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":1508,"children":1509},{},[1510,1515],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":1511,"children":1512},{},[1513],{"type":38,"value":1514},"Full-Funnel Attribution:",{"type":38,"value":1516}," We track the value of AI citations, even when they don't lead to a traditional click.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1518,"children":1519},{},[1520],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":1521,"children":1522},{},[1523],{"type":38,"value":1524},"Ensure your brand isn't left out of the answer.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1526,"children":1527},{},[1528,1541],{"type":28,"tag":1216,"props":1529,"children":1532},{"href":1530,"rel":1531},"https://www.google.com/search?q=https://mkgmarketinginc.com/book-a-call/&authuser=2",[1220],[1533],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":1534,"children":1535},{},[1536],{"type":28,"tag":1223,"props":1537,"children":1538},{},[1539],{"type":38,"value":1540},"Book a Discovery Call",{"type":38,"value":1542}," with an MKG expert today.",{"type":28,"tag":883,"props":1544,"children":1545},{},[],{"title":7,"searchDepth":836,"depth":836,"links":1547},[1548,1549,1550,1551,1557],{"id":1138,"depth":836,"text":1144},{"id":1190,"depth":836,"text":1196},{"id":1286,"depth":836,"text":1292},{"id":1363,"depth":836,"text":1369,"children":1552},[1553,1555,1556],{"id":1373,"depth":1554,"text":1379},3,{"id":1403,"depth":1554,"text":1409},{"id":1443,"depth":1554,"text":1449},{"id":1462,"depth":836,"text":1468},"content:blog:seo:monthly-search-industry-report-march-2026.md","blog/seo/monthly-search-industry-report-march-2026.md","blog/seo/monthly-search-industry-report-march-2026",{"_path":1562,"_dir":849,"_draft":6,"_partial":6,"_locale":7,"title":1563,"description":1564,"_schema":852,"authors":1565,"date":1566,"img":1567,"imgAlt":1568,"body":1569,"_type":840,"_id":1937,"_source":842,"_file":1938,"_stem":1939,"_extension":845,"category":849,"minutes":1125},"/blog/seo/the-trust-dividend-why-ai-governance-is-the-new-competitive-advantage","The Trust Dividend - Why AI Governance is the New Competitive Advantage","In a world of AI-generated noise, trust is the only currency that still compounds. Here is how to institutionalize human expertise.\n",[],"2026-04-01T17:59:00Z","/images/blog/mkg-blog-the-trust-dividend-hero-image.webp","The Trust Dividend",{"type":25,"children":1570,"toc":1926},[1571,1576,1581,1586,1591,1601,1610,1615,1620,1638,1643,1652,1657,1662,1667,1686,1695,1700,1705,1710,1736,1746,1755,1760,1765,1783,1788,1797,1802,1807,1819,1828,1833,1851,1856,1860,1869,1874,1879,1884,1893,1898,1903,1908,1915,1920,1923],{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1572,"children":1573},{},[1574],{"type":38,"value":1575},"We’ve reached the tipping point. In 2026, the B2B landscape isn't just crowded; it’s buried under a mountain of synthetic mediocrity. For the last two years, brands have been \"feeding the machine\" with high-volume, low-insight AI content, and the result is a massive trust deficit.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1577,"children":1578},{},[1579],{"type":38,"value":1580},"Buyers are exhausted. They are drowning in 2,000-word guides that say absolutely nothing new. When every LinkedIn post and white paper sounds like it was written by the same polite, slightly detached algorithm, the market begins to retreat. They aren't looking for more \"content\"; they are looking for \"Verified Human\" signals.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1582,"children":1583},{},[1584],{"type":38,"value":1585},"This is the chaos of the current moment: Your prospects are no longer just skeptical of your product—they are skeptical of your very information. They are looking for the marketing leader they’d actually want to work with: sharp, grounded, a little funny, and always focused on what actually works.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1587,"children":1588},{},[1589],{"type":38,"value":1590},"If your strategy is still focused on volume, you aren't building authority; you’re just contributing to the fog. To win in this era, you need to pivot from volume to Information Gain—adding data and perspectives that an AI simply cannot hallucinate. This is where AI Governance for Marketing stops being a legal hurdle and starts being your primary competitive advantage.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1592,"children":1593},{},[1594,1597],{"type":28,"tag":883,"props":1595,"children":1596},{},[],{"type":28,"tag":887,"props":1598,"children":1600},{"height":889,"width":890,"src":1599},"/uploads/mkg-blog-the-trust-dividend-image-1.png",[],{"type":28,"tag":29,"props":1602,"children":1604},{"id":1603},"the-content-inflation-crisis-and-the-flight-to-quality",[1605],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":1606,"children":1607},{},[1608],{"type":38,"value":1609},"The Content Inflation Crisis and the Flight to Quality",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1611,"children":1612},{},[1613],{"type":38,"value":1614},"We’ve said it before: marketing should not feel like you’re treading water with a laptop, which is what can happen when teams use AI to churn out generic thought leadership articles. When you recite a B2B brochure, you sound dry and detached.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1616,"children":1617},{},[1618],{"type":38,"value":1619},"The trust deficit has created a demand for quality, and B2B buyers are now prioritizing:",{"type":28,"tag":956,"props":1621,"children":1622},{},[1623,1628,1633],{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":1624,"children":1625},{},[1626],{"type":38,"value":1627},"First-Party Data: Real numbers from real campaigns, not \"industry averages\".",{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":1629,"children":1630},{},[1631],{"type":38,"value":1632},"Hard-Won Lessons: Experiences that a senior strategist has actually lived through and knows how to navigate.",{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":1634,"children":1635},{},[1636],{"type":38,"value":1637},"Contrarian Insights: The willingness to say things the way clients are actually thinking them.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1639,"children":1640},{},[1641],{"type":38,"value":1642},"If your AI isn't governed by a human system that prioritizes these B2B trust signals, you are essentially invisible. It’s not you, it’s the lack of a system. At MKG, we lead with insight, not ego.",{"type":28,"tag":29,"props":1644,"children":1646},{"id":1645},"institutionalizing-accountability-the-mkgos-approach",[1647],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":1648,"children":1649},{},[1650],{"type":38,"value":1651},"Institutionalizing Accountability: The mkgOS Approach",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1653,"children":1654},{},[1655],{"type":38,"value":1656},"At MKG, we don’t talk in trends; we talk in tactics and systems. To address the trust deficit, we turn to the Accountability pillar of our operating system. We believe that AI Governance for Marketing isn’t about restriction; it’s about creating a disciplined, thoughtful approach to generative technology.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1658,"children":1659},{},[1660],{"type":38,"value":1661},"True governance means having your systems dialed and your values straight. It means moving beyond the \"prompt and post\" mentality and building a rhythmic engine that compounds trust over time.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1663,"children":1664},{},[1665],{"type":38,"value":1666},"When we talk about the TRACK (Accountability) pillar, we are talking about:",{"type":28,"tag":1668,"props":1669,"children":1670},"ol",{},[1671,1676,1681],{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":1672,"children":1673},{},[1674],{"type":38,"value":1675},"Verification Layers: Every piece of output must be stress-tested by someone who has \"done the reps\".",{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":1677,"children":1678},{},[1679],{"type":38,"value":1680},"Information Gain SEO: Shifting the focus from keyword density to unique insight density that AI can't mimic.",{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":1682,"children":1683},{},[1684],{"type":38,"value":1685},"Human-in-the-Loop Operations: Ensuring that personality comes through truth and tone, not through forced jokes.",{"type":28,"tag":29,"props":1687,"children":1689},{"id":1688},"information-gain-adding-what-the-machine-cant-hallucinate",[1690],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":1691,"children":1692},{},[1693],{"type":38,"value":1694},"Information Gain: Adding What the Machine Can't Hallucinate",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1696,"children":1697},{},[1698],{"type":38,"value":1699},"The secret to Information Gain SEO in 2026 is simple: speak like a senior strategist who’s been in the mess. AI can summarize the internet, but it cannot tell you how a specific lead-scoring model failed or why a certain OKR structure fell apart in Asana.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1701,"children":1702},{},[1703],{"type":38,"value":1704},"This mix of compassion for the overwhelmed marketer and clarity about the plan is our superpower. Governance is the \"hold the line\" part of that equation. It ensures that we never sound like we’re reciting a brochure.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1706,"children":1707},{},[1708],{"type":38,"value":1709},"To achieve Information Gain, your governance model must mandate:",{"type":28,"tag":956,"props":1711,"children":1712},{},[1713,1718,1731],{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":1714,"children":1715},{},[1716],{"type":38,"value":1717},"Proprietary Frameworks: Like the \"Slow is smooth, smooth is fast\" mentality that adds flavor, not fluff.",{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":1719,"children":1720},{},[1721,1723,1729],{"type":38,"value":1722},"Negative Constraints: Explicitly stating what ",{"type":28,"tag":1724,"props":1725,"children":1726},"em",{},[1727],{"type":38,"value":1728},"not",{"type":38,"value":1730}," to do, based on actual failures.",{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":1732,"children":1733},{},[1734],{"type":38,"value":1735},"Operator Energy: Speaking fluently in operations because you actually live in them.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1737,"children":1738},{},[1739,1742],{"type":28,"tag":883,"props":1740,"children":1741},{},[],{"type":28,"tag":887,"props":1743,"children":1745},{"height":889,"width":890,"src":1744},"/uploads/mkg-blog-the-trust-dividend-image-2.png",[],{"type":28,"tag":29,"props":1747,"children":1749},{"id":1748},"operationalizing-trust-the-use-this-not-this-of-ai-governance",[1750],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":1751,"children":1752},{},[1753],{"type":38,"value":1754},"Operationalizing Trust: The \"Use This, Not This\" of AI Governance",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1756,"children":1757},{},[1758],{"type":38,"value":1759},"To institutionalize trust, your team needs to understand the difference between tactical efficiency and strategic impact. We don’t need to be zany to be memorable, but we do say things that stick.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1761,"children":1762},{},[1763],{"type":38,"value":1764},"Here’s how AI governance changes your output in practice:",{"type":28,"tag":956,"props":1766,"children":1767},{},[1768,1773,1778],{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":1769,"children":1770},{},[1771],{"type":38,"value":1772},"Instead of: “Maximize your ROI with smarter marketing systems.”\u2028Use: “Let’s get your brain back.”",{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":1774,"children":1775},{},[1776],{"type":38,"value":1777},"Instead of: “Marketing agility requires proactive planning.”\u2028Use: “Still stuck in reactive mode?”",{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":1779,"children":1780},{},[1781],{"type":38,"value":1782},"Instead of: “You may be experiencing tactical inefficiencies.”\u2028Use: “You’re not broken. The system is.”",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1784,"children":1785},{},[1786],{"type":38,"value":1787},"By leading with \"Clear, Confident, and No B.S.\" communication, you skip the fluff. Your words remain tight, thoughtful, and human—not marketing-muddled or loaded with jargon. This directness is what buyers are craving in an era of AI-generated waffling.",{"type":28,"tag":29,"props":1789,"children":1791},{"id":1790},"why-volume-is-the-enemy-of-authority",[1792],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":1793,"children":1794},{},[1795],{"type":38,"value":1796},"Why Volume is the Enemy of Authority",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1798,"children":1799},{},[1800],{"type":38,"value":1801},"In the early days of AI, the goal was efficiency—how many articles can we produce? But that mindset leads to \"random acts of marketing\". When your competitors are flooding the market with 10% variations of the same ChatGPT response, your high-density, experience-backed insight stands out like a lighthouse.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1803,"children":1804},{},[1805],{"type":38,"value":1806},"We lead with insight, not ego. The \"Truth Deficit\" occurs when marketing teams prioritize the appearance of authority over its substance. They want \"Personality Without Performance\".",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1808,"children":1809},{},[1810,1812,1817],{"type":38,"value":1811},"But in a market where everyone is using the same LLMs, your personality ",{"type":28,"tag":1724,"props":1813,"children":1814},{},[1815],{"type":38,"value":1816},"is",{"type":38,"value":1818}," your performance. We show that personality through \"Kerry-isms\" and direct, no-B.S. communication. We aren't afraid to tell a client, \"You're doing too much\". Let's replace those random acts with something that actually works.",{"type":28,"tag":29,"props":1820,"children":1822},{"id":1821},"the-logistics-of-governance-from-asana-to-okrs",[1823],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":1824,"children":1825},{},[1826],{"type":38,"value":1827},"The Logistics of Governance: From Asana to OKRs",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1829,"children":1830},{},[1831],{"type":38,"value":1832},"AI Governance isn't a PDF that sits on a shared drive; it’s a compounding rhythm. We speak fluently in ops because we live in operations. For governance to work, it must be baked into your project management tools.",{"type":28,"tag":956,"props":1834,"children":1835},{},[1836,1841,1846],{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":1837,"children":1838},{},[1839],{"type":38,"value":1840},"In Asana: Every AI-assisted task includes a “Human Truth Check” subtask, where a subject-matter expert validates the output against real-world lead-scoring models or OKR results.",{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":1842,"children":1843},{},[1844],{"type":38,"value":1845},"In Brand Voice: We use our voice pillars to audit AI output. If it sounds “cutesy,” “waffling,” or “cold,” it goes back to the drawing board.",{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":1847,"children":1848},{},[1849],{"type":38,"value":1850},"In SEO: We audit for Information Gain by asking, “Does this article provide information that wasn’t present in the top 10 search results yesterday?”",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1852,"children":1853},{},[1854],{"type":38,"value":1855},"By implementing this strict framework, you ensure that every touchpoint reinforces your brand as a human entity. You move from \"Still stuck in reactive mode?\" to \"Built for humans. Proven in dashboards\".",{"type":28,"tag":887,"props":1857,"children":1859},{"height":889,"width":890,"src":1858},"/uploads/mkg-blog-the-trust-dividend-image-3.png",[],{"type":28,"tag":29,"props":1861,"children":1863},{"id":1862},"the-long-term-play-trust-as-a-moat",[1864],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":1865,"children":1866},{},[1867],{"type":38,"value":1868},"The Long-Term Play: Trust as a Moat",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1870,"children":1871},{},[1872],{"type":38,"value":1873},"The \"Trust Dividend\" is the measurable ROI you gain when your audience stops questioning your motives and starts following your lead. It’s what happens when you are strategic, not sterile.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1875,"children":1876},{},[1877],{"type":38,"value":1878},"When your competitors are waffling, you are warm but firm. While they are being \"cutesy\" with AI avatars, you are being experienced, not inflated. This competitive advantage isn't built overnight. It’s a rhythm. It’s about having your systems dialed and staying focused on what actually works.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1880,"children":1881},{},[1882],{"type":38,"value":1883},"It’s about recognizing that you don't need to be zany to be memorable—you just need to say things that stick. Whether it's \"Feed the machine\" or \"Slow is smooth, smooth is fast\", these anchors of truth build a bridge over the trust deficit.",{"type":28,"tag":29,"props":1885,"children":1887},{"id":1886},"final-thoughts-get-your-brain-back",[1888],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":1889,"children":1890},{},[1891],{"type":38,"value":1892},"Final Thoughts: Get Your Brain Back",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1894,"children":1895},{},[1896],{"type":38,"value":1897},"If your team is currently \"treading water with a laptop,\" trying to keep up with the AI content arms race, it’s time for a pivot. You aren't broken; the current system is.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1899,"children":1900},{},[1901],{"type":38,"value":1902},"Let's get your brain back. By institutionalizing AI Governance through the lens of accountability and information gain, you stop being a producer of noise and start being a source of truth. You move from \"reactive mode\" to true \"Operator Energy\".",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1904,"children":1905},{},[1906],{"type":38,"value":1907},"In 2026, the most valuable thing you can own is a buyer’s trust. Don't let an ungoverned algorithm cannibalize it. We're human. We're here to help.",{"type":28,"tag":29,"props":1909,"children":1910},{"id":1092},[1911],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":1912,"children":1913},{},[1914],{"type":38,"value":1098},{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1916,"children":1917},{},[1918],{"type":38,"value":1919},"The rise of generative AI has created a \"Content Inflation Crisis,\" leading B2B buyers to tune out generic, synthetic marketing. To win in 2026, brands must pivot from high-volume output to a strategy of Information Gain, adding unique insights that AI cannot replicate. By institutionalizing AI Governance through the TRACK (Accountability) pillar of the mkgOS, marketing leaders can clear the fog of AI noise, build genuine B2B Trust Signals, and turn governance into a sustainable competitive advantage.",{"type":28,"tag":883,"props":1921,"children":1922},{},[],{"type":28,"tag":883,"props":1924,"children":1925},{},[],{"title":7,"searchDepth":836,"depth":836,"links":1927},[1928,1929,1930,1931,1932,1933,1934,1935,1936],{"id":1603,"depth":836,"text":1609},{"id":1645,"depth":836,"text":1651},{"id":1688,"depth":836,"text":1694},{"id":1748,"depth":836,"text":1754},{"id":1790,"depth":836,"text":1796},{"id":1821,"depth":836,"text":1827},{"id":1862,"depth":836,"text":1868},{"id":1886,"depth":836,"text":1892},{"id":1092,"depth":836,"text":1098},"content:blog:seo:the-trust-dividend-why-ai-governance-is-the-new-competitive-advantage.md","blog/seo/the-trust-dividend-why-ai-governance-is-the-new-competitive-advantage.md","blog/seo/the-trust-dividend-why-ai-governance-is-the-new-competitive-advantage",{"_path":1941,"_dir":849,"_draft":6,"_partial":6,"_locale":7,"title":1942,"description":1943,"_schema":852,"authors":1944,"date":1945,"img":1946,"imgAlt":1947,"body":1948,"_type":840,"_id":2224,"_source":842,"_file":2225,"_stem":2226,"_extension":845,"category":849,"minutes":2227},"/blog/seo/the-franken-stack-failure-why-your-disconnected-tools-are-cannibalizing-your-series-b-roi","The 'Franken-Stack' Failure - Why Your Disconnected Tools are Cannibalizing Your Series-B ROI","Stop committing random acts of marketing. It’s time to trade tool-bloat for a predictable system that actually compounds.",[],"2026-03-25T17:59:00Z","/images/blog/the-franken-stack-failure-hero-image-1.webp","The 'Franken-Stack' Failure",{"type":25,"children":1949,"toc":2214},[1950,1955,1964,1969,1974,1984,1993,1998,2003,2008,2013,2018,2062,2071,2076,2081,2091,2100,2105,2110,2115,2133,2142,2147,2152,2161,2166,2171,2175,2184,2189,2194,2201,2206,2211],{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1951,"children":1952},{},[1953],{"type":38,"value":1954},"You’ve raised the capital. You’ve hired the \"rockstar\" VPs. You’ve greenlit a tech budget that would make a 2015 startup weep with envy. And yet, if you’re honest, your marketing department feels less like a well-oiled machine and more like a collection of expensive, shouting islands.",{"type":28,"tag":29,"props":1956,"children":1958},{"id":1957},"welcome-to-the-franken-stack",[1959],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":1960,"children":1961},{},[1962],{"type":38,"value":1963},"Welcome to the Franken-Stack.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1965,"children":1966},{},[1967],{"type":38,"value":1968},"It starts innocently enough. A specialized tool for email, another for intent data, a third for LinkedIn automation, and a \"must-have\" dashboard that promised to unify it all. By the time you hit Series B, growth executives are often drowning in 20+ SaaS subscriptions that don’t share data, don't talk to your CRM, and certainly don't provide a clear picture of ROI.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1970,"children":1971},{},[1972],{"type":38,"value":1973},"The result? You aren't executing a strategy; you're performing \"Random Acts of Marketing\". You’re treading water with a laptop, and the CFO is starting to ask why the customer acquisition cost looks like a heart monitor in a horror movie.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1975,"children":1976},{},[1977,1980],{"type":28,"tag":883,"props":1978,"children":1979},{},[],{"type":28,"tag":887,"props":1981,"children":1983},{"height":889,"width":890,"src":1982},"/uploads/The-Franken-Stack-Failure-blog-image-1.png",[],{"type":28,"tag":29,"props":1985,"children":1987},{"id":1986},"the-cost-of-tool-bloat-performance-or-performance-art",[1988],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":1989,"children":1990},{},[1991],{"type":38,"value":1992},"The Cost of Tool-Bloat: Performance or Performance Art?",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1994,"children":1995},{},[1996],{"type":38,"value":1997},"Most B2B companies treat their Marketing Operations like a junk drawer. Whenever a new problem arises—\"We need more leads!\" or \"Our attribution is fuzzy!\"—the reflex is to buy another piece of software.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":1999,"children":2000},{},[2001],{"type":38,"value":2002},"But here’s the truth: You don't need another channel; you need a rhythm that compounds.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2004,"children":2005},{},[2006],{"type":38,"value":2007},"When your tools don't communicate, your team spends half their week playing \"data janitor.\" They are manually exporting CSVs from one platform to upload them into another, trying to figure out if that MQL from last Tuesday actually came from the $10k-a-month ad spend or a stray LinkedIn post. This isn't marketing agility; it's a lack of a system.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2009,"children":2010},{},[2011],{"type":38,"value":2012},"At MKG, we’ve been in the mess, and we know how to clear the fog. We know that when the stack becomes a monster, the \"strategy\" becomes whatever the software allows you to do. We’re not afraid to say what you’re thinking: You're doing too much. We skip the fluff and lead with insight, not ego.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2014,"children":2015},{},[2016],{"type":38,"value":2017},"The 'Franken-Stack' Is Cannibalizing Your ROI. In the Series B world, efficiency isn't just a buzzword; it’s the difference between a successful exit and a \"restructuring\" conversation. A disconnected stack creates three specific ROI killers:",{"type":28,"tag":1668,"props":2019,"children":2020},{},[2021,2034,2047],{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":2022,"children":2023},{},[2024,2029,2031],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":2025,"children":2026},{},[2027],{"type":38,"value":2028},"The Attribution Mirage:",{"type":38,"value":2030}," If your lead scoring model lives in a vacuum, you’re optimizing for clicks that don't convert. You’re celebrating \"wins\" in a dashboard that doesn't reflect your bank account.",{"type":28,"tag":883,"props":2032,"children":2033},{},[],{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":2035,"children":2036},{},[2037,2042,2044],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":2038,"children":2039},{},[2040],{"type":38,"value":2041},"The Context Gap:",{"type":38,"value":2043}," Sales doesn't know what Marketing is doing. Marketing doesn't know which leads are actually closing. You’re paying for data you can’t use because it’s trapped in a silo.",{"type":28,"tag":883,"props":2045,"children":2046},{},[],{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":2048,"children":2049},{},[2050,2055,2057,2060],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":2051,"children":2052},{},[2053],{"type":38,"value":2054},"The \"Slow is Smooth\" Problem:",{"type":38,"value":2056}," As we like to say, \"Slow is smooth, smooth is fast\". A fragmented stack is the opposite of smooth. Every new campaign requires a \"workaround.\" You’re moving slowly because your tools are fighting each other.",{"type":28,"tag":883,"props":2058,"children":2059},{},[],{"type":38,"value":2061}," ",{"type":28,"tag":29,"props":2063,"children":2065},{"id":2064},"why-your-growth-execs-are-drowning-and-how-to-save-them",[2066],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":2067,"children":2068},{},[2069],{"type":38,"value":2070},"Why Your Growth Execs are Drowning (And How to Save Them)",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2072,"children":2073},{},[2074],{"type":38,"value":2075},"Growth leaders at the Series B stage are often forced into a \"performance\" mindset, feeling they must use every shiny new tool to prove they are staying ahead of the curve. But personality and success come through truth and tone, not forced jokes or loud branding.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2077,"children":2078},{},[2079],{"type":38,"value":2080},"When you are \"marketing-muddled,\" your message gets lost in the pipes. Instead of sharp, grounded leadership, you get a \"B2B brochure\" sound that says everything and means nothing. We prefer to be crisp without being clipped. We meet overwhelmed marketers with empathy and a plan, holding space for the chaos while holding the line on the strategy.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2082,"children":2083},{},[2084,2087],{"type":28,"tag":883,"props":2085,"children":2086},{},[],{"type":28,"tag":887,"props":2088,"children":2090},{"height":889,"width":890,"src":2089},"/uploads/The-Franken-Stack-Failure-blog-image-2.png",[],{"type":28,"tag":29,"props":2092,"children":2094},{"id":2093},"a-better-way-forward-introducing-the-mkgos",[2095],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":2096,"children":2097},{},[2098],{"type":38,"value":2099},"A Better Way Forward: Introducing the mkgOS",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2101,"children":2102},{},[2103],{"type":38,"value":2104},"We don't believe in adding more noise to the signal. We believe in a unified layer of Strategy + Services + Tech—what we call the mkgOS.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2106,"children":2107},{},[2108],{"type":38,"value":2109},"Think of mkgOS not as another tool to add to the pile, but as the operating system that makes the pile functional. We don't talk in trends; we talk in tactics and systems. We speak fluently in ops because we live in operations—from Asana to OKRs to lead scoring models.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2111,"children":2112},{},[2113],{"type":38,"value":2114},"The mkgOS approach replaces tool-bloat with a predictable system by:",{"type":28,"tag":956,"props":2116,"children":2117},{},[2118,2123,2128],{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":2119,"children":2120},{},[2121],{"type":38,"value":2122},"Auditing for Impact: Cutting the tools that are just \"performance art\" and doubling down on the ones that actually \"feed the machine\".",{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":2124,"children":2125},{},[2126],{"type":38,"value":2127},"Connecting the Pipes: Ensuring your data flows from initial touchpoint to final sale without manual intervention.",{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":2129,"children":2130},{},[2131],{"type":38,"value":2132},"Operationalizing Strategy: Turning high-level goals into rhythmic execution.",{"type":28,"tag":29,"props":2134,"children":2136},{"id":2135},"the-b2b-tech-stack-audit-clearing-the-fog",[2137],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":2138,"children":2139},{},[2140],{"type":38,"value":2141},"The B2B Tech Stack Audit: Clearing the Fog",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2143,"children":2144},{},[2145],{"type":38,"value":2146},"A proper B2B Tech Stack Audit isn't just about cutting costs; it's about reclaiming your team's mental bandwidth. We want to \"get your brain back\". When we dive into your operations, we look for the \"ghosts in the machine\"—those automated sequences that no longer match your brand voice, or the \"zombie\" subscriptions that everyone forgot were even running.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2148,"children":2149},{},[2150],{"type":38,"value":2151},"We lead with a Lean Marketing Strategy. This isn't about being cheap; it's about being strategic, not sterile. It’s about ensuring that every dollar spent on a tool contributes to a clear, confident, no-B.S. bottom line.",{"type":28,"tag":29,"props":2153,"children":2155},{"id":2154},"built-for-humans-proven-in-dashboards",[2156],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":2157,"children":2158},{},[2159],{"type":38,"value":2160},"Built for Humans. Proven in Dashboards.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2162,"children":2163},{},[2164],{"type":38,"value":2165},"We’ve done the reps. We know that a Lean Marketing Strategy isn't about doing less; it's about doing what actually works. We’re direct without being cold and crisp without being clipped.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2167,"children":2168},{},[2169],{"type":38,"value":2170},"If your current marketing setup feels like \"tactical inefficiencies\", it’s time to stop the random acts. You aren't broken. The system is. We meet overwhelmed marketers with empathy and a plan. We’re experienced, but not inflated.",{"type":28,"tag":887,"props":2172,"children":2174},{"height":889,"width":890,"src":2173},"/uploads/The-Franken-Stack-Failure-blog-image-3.png",[],{"type":28,"tag":29,"props":2176,"children":2178},{"id":2177},"stop-treading-water",[2179],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":2180,"children":2181},{},[2182],{"type":38,"value":2183},"Stop Treading Water",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2185,"children":2186},{},[2187],{"type":38,"value":2188},"The \"Franken-Stack\" doesn't just cost money; it costs momentum. Every day your team spends fighting their tools is a day they aren't spending on outthinking your competition.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2190,"children":2191},{},[2192],{"type":38,"value":2193},"It’s time to move from \"reactive mode\" to a proactive, rhythmic engine. Let’s replace the fluff with something tight, thoughtful, and human. We’re here to help. We’re not afraid to say things the way our clients are thinking them—it's time to kill the Franken-Stack and build something that actually works.",{"type":28,"tag":29,"props":2195,"children":2196},{"id":1092},[2197],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":2198,"children":2199},{},[2200],{"type":38,"value":1098},{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2202,"children":2203},{},[2204],{"type":38,"value":2205},"High-growth companies often fall into the \"Franken-Stack\" trap—owning dozens of disconnected tools that create data silos and \"Random Acts of Marketing\". This fragmentation wastes Series B capital and obscures true ROI. By implementing mkgOS, MKG Marketing provides a unified layer of strategy and operations that clears the fog, streamlines Marketing Operations, and replaces expensive tool bloat with a lean, predictable system that actually works.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2207,"children":2208},{},[2209],{"type":38,"value":2210},"Would you like me to draft a checklist for your first B2B Tech Stack Audit to see which of your tools are actually \"feeding the machine\"?",{"type":28,"tag":883,"props":2212,"children":2213},{},[],{"title":7,"searchDepth":836,"depth":836,"links":2215},[2216,2217,2218,2219,2220,2221,2222,2223],{"id":1957,"depth":836,"text":1963},{"id":1986,"depth":836,"text":1992},{"id":2064,"depth":836,"text":2070},{"id":2093,"depth":836,"text":2099},{"id":2135,"depth":836,"text":2141},{"id":2154,"depth":836,"text":2160},{"id":2177,"depth":836,"text":2183},{"id":1092,"depth":836,"text":1098},"content:blog:seo:the-franken-stack-failure-why-your-disconnected-tools-are-cannibalizing-your-series-b-roi.md","blog/seo/the-franken-stack-failure-why-your-disconnected-tools-are-cannibalizing-your-series-b-roi.md","blog/seo/the-franken-stack-failure-why-your-disconnected-tools-are-cannibalizing-your-series-b-roi",5,{"_path":2229,"_dir":2230,"_draft":6,"_partial":6,"_locale":7,"title":2231,"description":2232,"_schema":852,"authors":2233,"date":2234,"img":2235,"imgAlt":2236,"body":2237,"_type":840,"_id":2705,"_source":842,"_file":2706,"_stem":2707,"_extension":845,"category":2230,"minutes":2708},"/blog/leadership/ai-agencies-and-the-future-of-expertise-with-kerry-guard","leadership","AI, Agencies, and the Future of Expertise with Kerry Guard","Kerry joins Alex and Jake on the Hypeworks Podcast to break down how AI is reshaping agencies—creating both risk and opportunity.",[18],"2026-03-20T12:00:00Z","/images/hypeworks.webp","Hype Works  Podcast",{"type":25,"children":2238,"toc":2698},[2239,2244,2249,2254,2259,2262,2268,2281,2285,2290,2295,2300,2305,2310,2315,2320,2325,2330,2335,2340,2345,2350,2355,2360,2365,2370,2375,2380,2385,2390,2395,2400,2405,2410,2415,2420,2425,2430,2435,2440,2445,2450,2455,2460,2465,2470,2475,2480,2485,2490,2495,2500,2505,2510,2515,2520,2525,2530,2535,2540,2545,2550,2555,2560,2565,2570,2575,2580,2585,2590,2595,2600,2605,2610,2615,2620,2625,2630,2635,2640,2645,2650,2655,2660,2665,2670,2675,2680,2685,2690,2695],{"type":28,"tag":1371,"props":2240,"children":2241},{"id":31},[2242],{"type":38,"value":2243},"Overview",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2245,"children":2246},{},[2247],{"type":38,"value":2248},"AI is reshaping how agencies operate, but it’s not a simple replacement story. In this conversation, Kerry Guard explores the tension between speed and expertise—where some companies are leaning heavily on AI, while others are realizing that tools alone can’t replace strategic thinking.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2250,"children":2251},{},[2252],{"type":38,"value":2253},"Kerry breaks down why low-quality “AI slop” is on the rise, how agencies can evolve instead of becoming obsolete, and why product–market fit still matters more than ever.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2255,"children":2256},{},[2257],{"type":38,"value":2258},"The takeaway is clear: AI will change how work gets done, but real value will come from the teams who know how to use it with clarity, depth, and purpose.",{"type":28,"tag":1371,"props":2260,"children":2261},{"id":7},[],{"type":28,"tag":29,"props":2263,"children":2265},{"id":2264},"take-a-listen",[2266],{"type":38,"value":2267},"Take a listen",{"type":28,"tag":2269,"props":2270,"children":2280},"iframe",{"dataTestid":2271,"style":2272,"src":2273,"width":2274,"height":2275,"frameBorder":2276,"allowFullScreen":2277,"allow":2278,"loading":2279},"embed-iframe","border-radius:12px","https://open.spotify.com/embed/episode/4wzSHptRmd4o5leirfk10l/video?utm_source=generator",624,351,"0",true,"autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; fullscreen; picture-in-picture","lazy",[],{"type":28,"tag":1371,"props":2282,"children":2283},{"id":48},[2284],{"type":38,"value":54},{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2286,"children":2287},{},[2288],{"type":38,"value":2289},"Alex 0:00",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2291,"children":2292},{},[2293],{"type":38,"value":2294},"It's all right, it's Alex on the highways podcast episode 61, we have with us, Jake, hello as usual. And also joining today is Kerry Guard. Nice to have you, Kerry. So we were just sort of riffing offline about how agencies are being disrupted with AI. So let's get into that, because that's kind of like a really burning topic, and we haven't really talked about that, Jake, have we? We've talked a lot about the technical side of AI and business models and related to, like, a typical kind of company situation, but we haven't talked about the agency side. So that is this",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2296,"children":2297},{},[2298],{"type":38,"value":2299},"Jake 0:43",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2301,"children":2302},{},[2303],{"type":38,"value":2304},"So that's the part we should do, though, because it's kind of how we both ended up here.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2306,"children":2307},{},[2308],{"type":38,"value":2309},"Alex 0:49",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2311,"children":2312},{},[2313],{"type":38,"value":2314},"Yes, that is right. We've gone from we've gone from agency to product and more platform stuff. But anyway, you're an agency. You're an agency. So maybe you can sort of just give us your perspective, like where you kind of were, like, in terms of the agency world, and then take us to today, with the current AI situation.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2316,"children":2317},{},[2318],{"type":38,"value":2319},"Kerry Guard 1:15",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2321,"children":2322},{},[2323],{"type":38,"value":2324},"Yeah. I mean, it's interesting and exciting. There are sort of two camps in how AI has impacted the agency world before. We were very much looked towards as the experts that we were bringing on for our expertise, that we were going to help create extra manpower and support in terms of making sure that content production is going to end up in the SERPs, so on and so forth. And now with AI, it's sort of splitting into two camps. One camp is which literally just happened to us, where we got let go because they figured the marketing manager could do everything that we were doing, thanks to the help of AI. On the flip side, we just got hired because the VP of Marketing said that their marketing manager was too dependent on AI, and she was running in circles and didn't know which way was up, and needed help, and brought us and is now bringing us off. So the AI psychosis, literally, yeah, so it's definitely impacting us, but I also feel like it's an opportunity in terms of helping people understand that AI is great for people to use it as something that makes you go faster when already having the information and knowing what it is and being an expert In the space and then having AI at your disposal makes you be able to go so much deeper and faster at the same time, which we never really had before. Either you had people very shallow but going very fast, or you had people very deep, going very slow. And now there's this, like a lovely middle ground, but you still need the expert in the seat to do the thing.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2326,"children":2327},{},[2328],{"type":38,"value":2329},"Jake 3:00",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2331,"children":2332},{},[2333],{"type":38,"value":2334},"I agree. There's, you know, I think, not to, not to sound like I'm whining here, but there's a, there's a lot of people these days like running Claude code boot camps and open claw boot camps that, who knows how they're actually applying both of those technologies in their day to day, but they suddenly have a group of 1000 people that they're training, or they're getting experts in, or they're outsourcing, I'm not entirely sure. So I think that the hot there is a gold rush as well, and in that gold rush, there are still people that are shallow, but running faster than ever.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2336,"children":2337},{},[2338],{"type":38,"value":2339},"Kerry Guard 3:43",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2341,"children":2342},{},[2343],{"type":38,"value":2344},"Yeah, but it's dangerous. Who's it dangerous for? Gosh, everybody, I mean, especially for the end user, right? Like the amount of slop out there that we have to sort through to get to the good information is like compounding very quickly, right? And if you don't have users, then you don't have money and opportunity to, you know, do more, right? So like, I feel like, if we ostracize them, most importantly, we're in deep trouble. But then even for ourselves, you know, doing really good work and feeling good about it and putting good out into the world. Yeah, I think it's something we're losing, and that's just kind of a bummer. In my opinion.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2346,"children":2347},{},[2348],{"type":38,"value":2349},"Jake 4:32",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2351,"children":2352},{},[2353],{"type":38,"value":2354},"I would agree with that. I also think Alex likes to come back to a conversation that we had earlier, because I feel like the chicken and egg situation these days is really egg before chicken, whichever way you want to see that. But you know, growing an audience and then building the product is a new model that I think is more prevalent now because of things like AI and people being able to build MVPs very quickly. Vibe, coded tools, or even just AI content or distribution of content through automated systems that people are building an audience, such as the open core boot camp, and then they're finding a way to, like, crowbar some sort of product into it. Now that might seem a little bit unethical, but the one moat that AI doesn't have is distribution, and that's also, I guess, that's what I think is dangerous, at least, I think that is dangerous, giving people who don't know what they're doing a potential massive audience to do some real harm. I mean, we can just switch this into a different topic now, because it's very relevant. But the Louis Theroux documentary, I've not seen it, but, you know, I think that the outcome of that documentary, I'm not sure if you know what I'm talking about, Kerry about the enter the manosphere, regardless of what you think about the topic, the I think the takeaway for me was the there's a lot of people out there, just generally in the world, regardless of whatever sphere that they exist in, that have insane amounts of power, insane amounts of influence, through building audiences in a certain topic, or just sounding like an authority in something that they might not necessarily be an expert in.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2356,"children":2357},{},[2358],{"type":38,"value":2359},"Kerry Guard 6:24",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2361,"children":2362},{},[2363],{"type":38,"value":2364},"Yeah, super dangerous. I Yeah. That documentary was definitely eye-opening for so many, not for others. It was sort of a no-duh. It's an interesting conversation that's sort of happening on, you know, the social media platforms. But I would agree, I the echo chamber, right? Getting caught up in that echo chamber, and then the algorithms learning what you're interested in, I'm always so afraid to click on certain things, like in LinkedIn, of like, Oh no, I'm going to comment on this, and then it's all I'm going to see for a while, right? Of like, and I don't want to be stuck in that. I want to see other points of view, and yeah, and what other people might think about it, not be just constantly served the same thing over and over again, but that's what happens, right? And now with AI, people will go have these conversations. It's like that, not, I mean, it's kind of on topic, kind of off topic. But like, you know, the school shooting that happened in canada was it a shooting or stabbing that happened in Canada because somebody was on AI and they were constantly being fed validation of their actions, of going and having the shooting, and how to do it right? So like, just that reiteration, whether it's happening through conversation with AI or coming around you from a channel perspective, totally dangerous and somewhere where we're going to be interesting to see who starts to put some guard rails up. I know Anthropic is a great company to be doing that. I hope they do continue to do that and lead the way and show what that needs to be, because, yeah, we're going to end up with some scary things that happen in those echo chambers, for sure.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2366,"children":2367},{},[2368],{"type":38,"value":2369},"Jake 8:03",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2371,"children":2372},{},[2373],{"type":38,"value":2374},"I think it's a human thing, though, as well. I don't know if you're guilty of this, but having conversations with AI, and I mean in voice mode, I've had conversations with AI in voice mode, my biggest criticism, and I guess why I don't do it anymore, is because it's boring. It just goes around in a loop. It will agree with you, and then you agree with it, and then that's it. The End of the conversation. It happens after about three minutes. Really, there's no more depth after it, and you'll have forgotten what else you wanted to say, because it will have given you a 32nd answer reflecting back at you what you wanted to hear.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2376,"children":2377},{},[2378],{"type":38,"value":2379},"Kerry Guard 8:41",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2381,"children":2382},{},[2383],{"type":38,"value":2384},"I push it a lot. I say, you know, stop blowing smoke. Tell me what you really think. Go look at the experts. So, I'm as an agency, one of the things I'm finding specifically in the SEO space, is that there's a lot of fragmentation happening in terms of how people are talking about showing up, whether it's in traditional SEO or the answer engines, or now generative engines, right? And so I'm trying to unify it now to just say, Listen, let's just talk about this as search visibility optimization. It doesn't matter where your audience is in terms of how they're searching for you, but you need to make sure you're showing up across the board. And in doing so, I'm talking to AI through it, and I said, What's the difference between off-page SEO and GEO? Because there's this argument happening on LinkedIn right now about, like, everybody's like, good SEO will be good AEO and good Geo. And I'm like, Ah, not really. Like, geo is a whole different beast, and you really have to think about that differently. And if we don't define it and just depend on what traditional SEO has done for us. We're never going to actually show up in the llms, and that's a problem, because the llms one day is going to take over. And so I actually asked Gemini and said, Are these two separate things? And Gemini was like, Absolutely not. They are the same thing. Saying off-page is the same as on-page. And I poked at it and worked through it, and I said, here's how I'm thinking about it. And then it came around and, like, agreed with me. And I was like, Okay, well, now it's agreeing with me, and we're stuck in a loop. And so I went over to Claude, and I had the same conversation with Claude. Claude was like, No, these are two different things. They have to stay that way. And I was like, well, here's how I'm thinking about it. And Claude was like, actually, that's really valid, and here's why. And it's like, backed up from all these different sources as to why, this makes a ton of sense. And so it's, it's interesting, of like, how these different platforms are even thinking. And then, to your point of like, yeah, the validation immediately happens. And then it's like, Okay, now what? Yeah, I agree. Even in different platforms, it's happening like, Okay, now, what do we do and where do we go from here, in terms of making sure that we're thinking beyond what the AI can give us exactly?",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2386,"children":2387},{},[2388],{"type":38,"value":2389},"Jake 10:55",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2391,"children":2392},{},[2393],{"type":38,"value":2394},"Yeah, I think nailed it there, thinking beyond what the AI can give us, perfect, perfect framing. Because really, the AI, we've had this conversation a couple of times. I had it last Friday. It gives an average, it gives you an average answer, literally average. So thinking beyond it is important to differentiate if you gave it to conflict in perspectives, and then you asked it to make an average of those conflicting perspectives, as long as it wasn't the typical average, then it would be slightly different. But generally, if you ask it a broad question, or for guidance, it's going to give you something very average, and it will agree with you. And I think that you know, as a human, you have a confirmation bias. You want somebody, you want something to agree with you. You don't necessarily want it. You don't want to go. Is this a good idea? And you go, No, that's a stupid.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2396,"children":2397},{},[2398],{"type":38,"value":2399},"Kerry Guard 11:54",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2401,"children":2402},{},[2403],{"type":38,"value":2404},"No, but you do want something that will question you. So I do think putting in parameters, like I'll ask it to ask me, like, what gaps am I missing here? What? What are other people talking about? Is this already being talked about? Right? Go out there and tell me, I'll sort of find ways to prompt it to almost have it disagree with me in multiple to see if it can disagree with me in multiple ways. And sometimes it does. I'll write a LinkedIn post, and they'll be like, This is crap, and here's why. Like, thank you for that. That's what I needed. I'm trying to write off more than I could chew. It's way too long. It's trying to create too many points. I'm known for that on LinkedIn. But like, having it actually tell me that is super helpful, but I've had to train it to do that, which you can do. It just takes effort.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2406,"children":2407},{},[2408],{"type":38,"value":2409},"Jake 12:42",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2411,"children":2412},{},[2413],{"type":38,"value":2414},"I think Alex, at this point, I know that. I'm not sure we usually ask, but I think we have to give Kerry a little bit of Kerry. Why don't you tell us what you do and tell the audience?",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2416,"children":2417},{},[2418],{"type":38,"value":2419},"Kerry Guard 12:55",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2421,"children":2422},{},[2423],{"type":38,"value":2424},"Sure. So I own a digital marketing agency, and have for the last 15 plus years, we've always been remote, and that's why I get to live in the UK while the rest of my team is in the US, primary, primarily work with B to B Tech, SAS, companies in the US, helping them scale and build up through SEO and digital ads, making sure that they're found and visible, and that when users can see them and understand their brand, and then they Go search for them, that they're the answer.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2426,"children":2427},{},[2428],{"type":38,"value":2429},"Jake 13:22",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2431,"children":2432},{},[2433],{"type":38,"value":2434},"That was lovely. That was the best",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2436,"children":2437},{},[2438],{"type":38,"value":2439},"Alex 13:25",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2441,"children":2442},{},[2443],{"type":38,"value":2444},"I want to get into something. I want to get into something. Kerry, you say 15 years, so you've been, you've seen a lot in the agency space. Myself and Jake were in-house, in-house markers. So we worked in the tech industry. We worked for the same company for a while, and we also work together on projects, on agency stuff. And I feel like I would say again around chat, GPT launch, like 2022 - 23, something changed. Something changed. I think that, how can I say, like, the value of what we do change? Because suddenly people had access to all that computing for $20 a month, right? And a lot of the guys we used to work with suddenly started doing stuff themselves, as we talked about before, the pod. Then it feels like value creation. And you've seen this for the stock prices of all the big agencies, the big the blue chip ones, wpps, it's been, it's been flattened, right? You can't charge what you used to charge the business models, the billable hour. Business models are kind of broken now. So I think my question is, how do you, how do you, how do you put a price on value creation now, in this in this time when there's basically free compute and AI.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2446,"children":2447},{},[2448],{"type":38,"value":2449},"Kerry Guard 14:38",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2451,"children":2452},{},[2453],{"type":38,"value":2454},"So it comes down to, I mean, for us, we do still go back into hours just to make sure we understand how much time things are generally taking. But it hasn't necessarily been that we dilute or come down in price over time. It's that now we can just do more. More and be more effective. So when I come, when I talk to clients, I'm like, Well, we have the faster we have the faster plan. So it's two plans. You can either go faster, you can go faster, because that's really what it comes down to these days, you know, we can give you in terms of SVL, we can we can give you all of the content briefs and all of the land. But can you actually implement them? Well, probably not. So let's not, if you're scaling up and you're just starting, doesn't make sense for us to be throwing, you know, 10 to 15 assets at you a month, right? So we're going to go on the fast plan, which makes more sense for the resources you have, or if you're digital ads, depending on your ads budget, right? Like we can't, it doesn't make sense for us to charge an agency fee based off of ad spend in terms of percentage when you're not really spending, you know, 25k plus, and even then, like, the percentage needs to be in relation to really, How many platforms, how many campaigns, what's actually being managed, versus just because you're spending more money? Just because you're spending more money doesn't mean it's necessarily more work for us. So in terms of how we're quantifying it, it's really, really it still comes down to hours and speed and what the client can navigate on their end, in terms of what we're giving them and our expertise, it is a premium because we hire people with 10 plus years of experience, who've done this for a long time, who know what they're doing, who can respond relatively quickly because they aren't learning it as they're doing it. And so I think that also comes down to it, as well as the account direction team that we have, the strategy team that's implemented, right? We don't just give you an SEO expert. We make sure that they're supported in the communication and in the strategic insight that's that's coming out. So it's that holistic team that is also coming to the table with that expertise, versus just that one person constantly pumping out, you know, a thing over and over again. It's based in data, it's based in the expertise. And that's really the value that we're bringing and how we're valuing it, from a from $1 standpoint.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2456,"children":2457},{},[2458],{"type":38,"value":2459},"Jake 17:15",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2461,"children":2462},{},[2463],{"type":38,"value":2464},"I'm gonna push back against Alex in Kerry's team here, but I think, I think it's like this, like the value of what you're describing, in some ways, it almost shouldn't change, because it's human-related. Whereas I feel like, if you take, let's say that you're an automation agency, then the value of that service is still being figured out, you know, because people might not necessarily understand the value of it at that point. On the client side, somebody might say, Well, these guys said that they're gonna automate it, and it will whip up 100 articles every minute. You know, then how you know? You don't know the quality of that, whereas in the Kerry model, at least you have some sort of like, well, for this process, this is the predicted outcome, because we've done this and it's built on X amount of years of experience. So I think on the future side, a lot of value surrounding things using AI is still really being defined. It's still being figured out. Because it's like, imagine, back in the day when websites were new, people go, Oh, you've got to get a website. Well, how much do I pay for a website? Do I pay $100 do I pay $1,000 like, what's the website going to do? How many people are going to find it? Is it going to be SEO ready? Is there somebody that's going to take care of that? So it's like, if you don't know anything about websites, let's just say that you were a business, you know, in the late 90s, and you're not going to understand the value of it, either. And I think we're in a stage right now where everything's crashing because of AI, but we still haven't figured out what's valuable in this new landscape. But what we know is what's valuable in the old landscape, and that's, I guess, in some ways, more predictable, and something that people can trust more easily.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2466,"children":2467},{},[2468],{"type":38,"value":2469},"Kerry Guard 19:16",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2471,"children":2472},{},[2473],{"type":38,"value":2474},"I will say outcomes are really important to you. To what you said, Jake, in regards to, we never want to, you know, if we're working with a company who's making an ARR of 3 million a year, right, we're not going to charge the same as somebody who's making 65 million. Again, that comes down to the resources they have, right? 65 million versus 3 million, they have way more resources. But the same time, the math has to math, right? There has to be a return on what we're producing and how we're bringing in pipeline and and that that there is a return on that investment, and we make sure of that, you know through the reporting that we do, but when we're putting a scope of work together, it's hard to say we know for sure that you're going. Make this kind of revenue in this time without really digging in and wrapping our arms around the company, but we look to get there because we think that's important, to make sure that it's all compounding over time towards that pipeline. Create for sure.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2476,"children":2477},{},[2478],{"type":38,"value":2479},"Alex 20:13",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2481,"children":2482},{},[2483],{"type":38,"value":2484},"Yeah. I also think the thing that people overlook with service businesses is that it's very on trend right now to focus on product, like Claude, ChatGPT, like all these AI products, right? And so we're all, all the next generation in, in, in these companies are like, Oh, I can just use ChatGPT. I guess Claude, it's product, product, product, right? But at the end of the day, like you see these companies themselves, like chat open, AI literally announced yesterday they're going to focus on enterprise. The whole team had a big meeting internally, and they said, We need to focus on enterprise, because that's where the you know that those those customers, those enterprise customers, are way more valuable than a 20 bucks a month, you know, guy so obviously, Anthropic is doing really well with enterprise and customer-focused enterprise. So I think, yeah, I think there's like, I think there's like, right now, there's just this bubble about AI products, and in the long run, it will kind of bend. The arc will bend back towards like, value, actual value creation, and service.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2486,"children":2487},{},[2488],{"type":38,"value":2489},"Kerry Guard 21:23",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2491,"children":2492},{},[2493],{"type":38,"value":2494},"Industries head to this all the time, right? Cybersecurity is a great example of this, if we were to sort of mirror them. One, cyber is a bit ahead of AI. And so right now, there's a lot of consolidation happening in cyber, because people are realizing that certain features that they now need, they could just buy a company that already does that, and now bring it into their company. And so AI is going to eventually, that's just how it goes, right? All these startups pop up for all these specific features, and then they start to consolidate into specific products that do certain thing, you know, multiple features that do certain things. And so we'll see that. But right now, it's definitely that startup of everybody's creating everything. And of course, I'm not surprised, but also like banging my head against the wall a little bit, if you're all going after enterprise, which is a very small subset of how many businesses are really out there, then I think they're all going to crash into each other at some point, and they're going to have to look at where those other businesses that could grow with us, that will eventually be an enterprise or be a bigger business. Man, I hate when companies do that drives me up a wall, like it's so short-sighted to just be like, we're all going to go after enterprise. Well, you and everybody else, and yeah.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2496,"children":2497},{},[2498],{"type":38,"value":2499},"Alex 22:39",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2501,"children":2502},{},[2503],{"type":38,"value":2504},"Yeah, look at the B to B. SaaS stock prices right now. They're all tagging.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2506,"children":2507},{},[2508],{"type":38,"value":2509},"Jake 22:44",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2511,"children":2512},{},[2513],{"type":38,"value":2514},"I also think, though, that, you know, LinkedIn, he's driving that sort of where the traffic is going. Because, you know, one month ago it was lovable. This month, it was like Claude. Next month, I've just seen as well, it's like Claude again. I posted on Twitter, Alex, I don't know whether you saw it, but a lot of this, I just deleted ChatGPT, and now I'm on Claude. It's like, everything's gone crazy this, like last month, but next month it'll be something else, because it was open claw before. It was probably like lovable January, open claw February, and it's been the Claude month this month.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2516,"children":2517},{},[2518],{"type":38,"value":2519},"Alex 23:23",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2521,"children":2522},{},[2523],{"type":38,"value":2524},"But I have another question related to product, actually, do you think so? I saw that WPP, the new lady that took over. WPP, she said, that we're going to be a product-focused agency. We're going to make our own products available to clients. So there's some influencer marketing tool, there's some SEO copywriting tool. Do you think like that is that is kind of really not the direction, like you can't just like you can't convert a service agency into a product company, right? What do you stand with that? Do you think agencies will all need to offer products at some point?",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2526,"children":2527},{},[2528],{"type":38,"value":2529},"Kerry Guard 23:59",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2531,"children":2532},{},[2533],{"type":38,"value":2534},"Trying to look like way down the line. My prediction is that it probably will feel and operate a bit like a product, but it's going to be internal of how you sort of set it up, and it operates, and it still needs to have humans and in the loop. But my my, my thinking is that what you'll essentially have is less people doing the work and more overseeing. So like you'll for an SEO team, I'll have one person, but then they'll have like, five agents, and each agent will have a specific job to be done in relation to that SEO person doing their work, so that they're more strategic and thinking about where the business needs to go, versus pulling the keywords down and doing a deep dive into it and seeing what competitors are doing like all this will sort of be served up to them, and then they'll be able to analyze it and then say, Okay, this is where the business needs to go. These are my recommendations. Like. Put together a presentation, and then another agent will go out and actually put together the presentation and bring it back, and then it'll be presented to the client. The client will never see these agents or never interact with them. They'll still be interacting with the humans. But the way that the agency model is going to change is that it's not going to be one person up here managing, you know, four people down here who are then mentioning four people down here. You know, as an org chart normally goes, it's going to be, at some point, an expert of, you know, five to 10 years managing a bunch of agents that are going to help them really think strategically about how to do their job. And I think that. And then the agents will connect across channels as well. So the SEO agents will be talking to digital ad agents. Hey, I'm seeing these keywords work. What are you seeing over there? How do you want to optimize? Here's how I'm thinking about optimizing, right? And they're going to be, we're sort of working together. It's going to feel like a product internally, but I don't know that we can sell it like that, because the client isn't going to be logging into a SaaS product and then telling these agents what to do. You still need a human with the expertise telling the agents and reviewing what the agents are doing and making sure that the work is still getting done to the caliber agency done at so that's and I got I got this because I went to a conference in September, and there was a company there called monks. I don't know if you've heard of them. Oh, yeah, agency, yeah. So they showed off their you know how, and they're doing exactly this. So they have an agent for every job to be done in creating a commercial. So they created a puma commercial. It took them two weeks to do end-to-end. All of the assets were still human. So that created them. The photographs came from humans, of humans, the videos, music, all of it, all the assets, came from creators, real creators of real humans within the photos and the videos. But it was the agents that went out to get those videos, that did the customer research, that stitched things together, that made there was an agent for brand continuity, making sure it was completely on brand end to end. So there, it took them months to build, but now they can pump commercials out in two weeks. That is still the output is still human, and I think that's what's interesting, and I do think that that's probably where agencies need to be thinking about and going. But calling it a product is kind of misleading. In my opinion.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2536,"children":2537},{},[2538],{"type":38,"value":2539},"Jake 27:24",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2541,"children":2542},{},[2543],{"type":38,"value":2544},"I think I'm going to be devils. I'm going to play both sides here. I think it'll be a product, but I also think within that product there will be the sort of customized agentic workflow that does need to be governed by the human, so I don't think that the it's not like the end client is going to be using the product. They may plug their API's of their different stack into wpps new product, but there has to be a manager internally that understands agentic workflows, that can customize those workflows to fit with whatever the needs of that specific client are. Have I played both sides?",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2546,"children":2547},{},[2548],{"type":38,"value":2549},"Kerry Guard 28:07",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2551,"children":2552},{},[2553],{"type":38,"value":2554},"Marketers are going to want, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, marketers, I'd love to hear in the comments, but I feel like you don't want to log into another thing to be dealing with a bunch of robots. Like it's like, when you call the bank with a problem, you just want to talk to a freaking human. Please, flow from God, please, just give me a human. Right. I don't want to go through this whole tree of telling you who my mother's maiden name is, you know, whatever. Like, I want a human. Give me a human. I feel like, as you know, an agency, I don't think that's going to go away. I think marketers are still going to want to be able to call up, talk to a human, and say, \" What's going on. Why is this working? Why isn't it? What are we doing about it? What are we going to be doing next? What's coming on the horizon? What are you thinking about? Not just log into a product and hope for the best.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2556,"children":2557},{},[2558],{"type":38,"value":2559},"Alex 29:01",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2561,"children":2562},{},[2563],{"type":38,"value":2564},"I think also the creative piece is interesting, like we talked earlier about hallucinations and stuff. Like, I've been running this open claw for, I think, two months now, and I asked it to schedule content for my own social media as a test, and it doesn't post it, so it just sets up the drafts in my Telegram, and I trained it on all of my social media posts from LinkedIn, Twitter. I dumped all that content from when I signed up to those services into files. I dumped that into the open claw, and the output has been very disappointing from a creative perspective, bang average. And if that's a representation of the creative for all of this stuff that's coming, then the creativity is still going to be the difference.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2566,"children":2567},{},[2568],{"type":38,"value":2569},"Jake 29:49",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2571,"children":2572},{},[2573],{"type":38,"value":2574},"The difference is, got it workflow design, that's the difference, like the creativity and how you design the workflows, what will effectively all. To adjust the endpoint from the average to something that's unique.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2576,"children":2577},{},[2578],{"type":38,"value":2579},"Alex 30:06",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2581,"children":2582},{},[2583],{"type":38,"value":2584},"But you still need a human in the loop, essentially that, yeah, yeah. And also brainstorming and coming up with ideas and trends, jumping on trends, and humor. I mean, they can't do humor, and humor is a big part of barking like the guys are cutting through the noise online. I've got that, that edge in terms of humor, for sure.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2586,"children":2587},{},[2588],{"type":38,"value":2589},"Jake 30:29",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2591,"children":2592},{},[2593],{"type":38,"value":2594},"You know, I've got Alex, when is it is it time? I'm not sure.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2596,"children":2597},{},[2598],{"type":38,"value":2599},"Alex 30:34",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2601,"children":2602},{},[2603],{"type":38,"value":2604},"It's time. Is it time? You have time for one more question?",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2606,"children":2607},{},[2608],{"type":38,"value":2609},"Jake 30:37",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2611,"children":2612},{},[2613],{"type":38,"value":2614},"I think it's another question. Then, then it's time. Yeah, okay, yeah, I was, I was gonna say, Kerry, what do you think in the last, I mean, Alex, you said it was about it was the end of it was 2023. We really started seeing this big impact. I still remember when weird we were working with the Chat GPT and nobody else had figured it out at that point. It was just us. But what do you think's been maybe the biggest disruption that you've personally experienced in the last two, two and a bit years?",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2616,"children":2617},{},[2618],{"type":38,"value":2619},"Kerry Guard 31:16",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2621,"children":2622},{},[2623],{"type":38,"value":2624},"So I work on websites, my husband is an engineer, and so he taught me how to do just enough to get by with building websites using NextJS, Tailwind, and In View, and it's night and day in terms of what a the caliber of what I can produce. Like, I had one website where it was for a local moving company out in Ohio, and I was like, this is a moving company. Like, this website needs to move. So I was able to create so much thoughtful animation, right just on word, like, just having, if I'm talking about things rearranging, you know, having the words come in and rearrange to the right point, or the only thing you'll have to lift is your coffee, and having that word lift come in, right? So not having overdone it, being really thoughtful and intentional about it, but things I wouldn't have been able to do before because a I didn't know how, and to figure it out would have taken me ages. So I just didn't think it was worth it, right? But now I can add just that little bit of extra flurry to for that customer engagement, right? And that AHA and that wow moment that I wasn't able to do before. And I think that's really again, coming back to what I said earlier. That's the power of AI when you put the tool in the hands of people who have a really good foundational understanding of how things are supposed to work. The output is just so much more phenomenal than what we could have ever done before. And that's that's been the most disruptive, I think, for me personally, and what I'm looking forward to doing more of in the future.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2626,"children":2627},{},[2628],{"type":38,"value":2629},"Jake 32:58",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2631,"children":2632},{},[2633],{"type":38,"value":2634},"Alex, it's a good setup. Very good step. Okay, Kerry, it's time for the final question of the show. Brace yourself. It gets everybody. It's future predictions. What are your future predictions? It could be about anything. It could be your life, your work, the world. Go. Could be agencies?",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2636,"children":2637},{},[2638],{"type":38,"value":2639},"Kerry Guard 33:22",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2641,"children":2642},{},[2643],{"type":38,"value":2644},"Yeah, I think, I think we're on a on a turning point with search engine optimization in particular. I think it's very disjointed right now. I think people don't know what to do about it. If I have clients showing up every day asking me, \" How do I show up in chat? GPT, right? Like, that's my traffic is dropping 40%, what do I do about it? So I think the whole marketing, how we do marketing, is about to sort of turn on its head, in regards to what we could get away with before that we can't get away with now, like we could do marketing without true product market fit, right? We could skirt the edges. We could outspend our competitors. We could just have a bigger sales team. And now, if we don't have real product market fit, meaning a problem we really solve that no one else solves, or in a different way, in a way that nobody else solves it, and talk about it in that way consistently almost everywhere, then we're going, we're never going to be found, because you can spend all the dollars and all the land to get seen, but then if people are trying to search for you, to validate what they're seeing, and they can't find you, then your brand is never going to grow and evolve. And so I think we're, we're at a turning point right now with how we show up, from, you know, in marketing, of really having to slow down for a second and understand our customers and really what they go through on a daily basis. How our products show up and support them. And I think we're going to have less products be successful, but they're going to be the better products in the long run anyway. And the marketing is going to get better in doing so and supporting that. It's going to be the next five to 10 years is gonna be really interesting in how AI search, or calling it search visibility optimization, how that really impacts what products actually make it.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2646,"children":2647},{},[2648],{"type":38,"value":2649},"Alex 35:29",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2651,"children":2652},{},[2653],{"type":38,"value":2654},"So 10 blue links are dead, or, Oh yeah, they're dead.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2656,"children":2657},{},[2658],{"type":38,"value":2659},"Kerry Guard 35:35",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2661,"children":2662},{},[2663],{"type":38,"value":2664},"It's, it's a leading indicator, like being knowing that you're ranking top for that keyword in validation to what people are searching for in llms is a leading indicator to the answer engines and to LLMs to say they are an authoritative voice in this space, but it's only one indicator out of many. So yes, you need that, but it's not the only thing you need.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2666,"children":2667},{},[2668],{"type":38,"value":2669},"Jake 35:57",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2671,"children":2672},{},[2673],{"type":38,"value":2674},"I was actually that brings me back. I was about to say this earlier. I'm glad that you reminded me, but I do feel like when the whole LLM SEO, call it what you will, you're more of an expert in it than me. People like, Oh, you've got to hack Reddit, spam Reddit, and Quora, and you'll rank. I think that those kind of tactics are going to disappear, because I agree, I think it's going to be, is this product, or is this service, a credible product or service, not one that's just game to the system, and because we've got the LLM, you'll be able to figure out which ones are gamers and which ones are the real deal quicker.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2676,"children":2677},{},[2678],{"type":38,"value":2679},"Kerry Guard 36:39",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2681,"children":2682},{},[2683],{"type":38,"value":2684},"Yeah. People are panicking right now because there's misinformation out there about their products, because people are gaming the system, but they just need to get out there and keep doing what they're doing. And white hat, black hat's always been a problem, right? So the white hat tactics are always going to win out. Google and Claude, especially, are going to lean into that user experience and always prioritize the user, and in doing so, they're going to prioritize the brands that are showing up in the most morale, the moral way, for sure, in the long run.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2686,"children":2687},{},[2688],{"type":38,"value":2689},"Alex 37:13",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":2691,"children":2692},{},[2693],{"type":38,"value":2694},"Oh, not Nope. Did the good guys win? Yeah, that's nice for a change. Normally, we end on like a doom I do more kind of note, so that's good, okay. All right, let's have you back on Kerry in like, a year and see how things are shaping up. Let's do it awesome. All right, guys, that was good. See you in the next one. Take care. Bye. 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A Google Partner approached me to assist with healthcare content and ads. I quickly discovered a passion for the field, and with Google Ads sales training followed by SEM training, I was hooked.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":3660,"children":3661},{},[3662],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":3663,"children":3664},{},[3665],{"type":38,"value":3666},"What I Love About Paid Search",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":3668,"children":3669},{},[3670],{"type":38,"value":3671},"Every campaign is like a unique puzzle, even within the same industry. Variations in geography, audiences, and keywords make each project different. I enjoy leveraging the full suite of Google products—Search, Display, Demand Gen, and YouTube—because they work best when integrated. The ever-evolving nature of the work keeps me inspired and challenged.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":3673,"children":3674},{},[3675],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":3676,"children":3677},{},[3678],{"type":38,"value":3679},"Why I Chose MKG Marketing",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":3681,"children":3682},{},[3683],{"type":38,"value":3684},"I was drawn to MKG Marketing for its people-first culture. The company recognizes that we are all human, with lives outside of work, and fosters a supportive environment that values balance and well-being.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":3686,"children":3687},{},[3688],{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":3689,"children":3690},{},[3691],{"type":38,"value":3692},"Fun Facts About Me",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":3694,"children":3695},{},[3696],{"type":38,"value":3697},"I’m an avid traveler and love immersing myself in different cultures. Before having kids, my husband and I spent at least three months each year exploring the world.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":3699,"children":3700},{},[3701],{"type":38,"value":3702},"I take cooking classes with locals wherever I go and love scuba diving whenever there’s water nearby.\nMy kids are my world—seeing their faces light up when experiencing something new brings me the greatest joy.",{"title":7,"searchDepth":836,"depth":836,"links":3704},[],"content:team:alicia-antonow.md","team/alicia-antonow.md","team/alicia-antonow",1,{"_path":3710,"_dir":3567,"_draft":6,"_partial":6,"_locale":7,"title":3711,"description":3712,"name":3711,"jobTitle":3713,"team":3714,"images":3715,"ref":3717,"linkedIn":3718,"sequence":3719,"body":3720,"_type":840,"_id":3768,"_source":842,"_file":3769,"_stem":3770,"_extension":845,"category":3567,"minutes":836},"/team/avery-davis","Avery Davis","Avery Davis is an Account Superivor here at MKG Marketing.","Account Supervisor","Account Services",{"landscape":3716},"avery-davis.webp","avery-davis","avery-davis-114055191",59,{"type":25,"children":3721,"toc":3765},[3722,3728,3733,3738,3743,3747],{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":3723,"children":3725},{"className":3724},[3584],[3726],{"type":38,"value":3727},"\nAvery began his digital marketing career at a tech startup focused on ID scanning and facial recognition software. In addition to gaining a deep understanding of paid media and analytics, this peaked his interest in cybersecurity and tech in general. He then transitioned to agency life where he specialized in SaaS marketing.\n",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":3729,"children":3730},{},[3731],{"type":38,"value":3732},"Over the years, Avery has touched a variety of verticals including health and beauty, eCommerce, medical/pharma, education, and more. He is drawn to agency life because of the variety of clients he is able to work with and, in turn, learn from.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":3734,"children":3735},{},[3736],{"type":38,"value":3737},"Although he’s touched several areas of digital marketing, Avery feels most at home when doing Account/ Project Management as well as Copywriting.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":3739,"children":3740},{},[3741],{"type":38,"value":3742},"As is the theme with many of our staff, Avery was drawn to MKG because of our culture. In Avery’s words “MKG shares the same values as I do in both my professional and my personal life. When I saw that we meshed so well, this was an opportunity I couldn’t refuse!”",{"type":28,"tag":1371,"props":3744,"children":3745},{"id":3605},[3746],{"type":38,"value":3608},{"type":28,"tag":956,"props":3748,"children":3749},{},[3750,3755,3760],{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":3751,"children":3752},{},[3753],{"type":38,"value":3754},"Avery is an avid racquetball player. Having first gotten into the sport in college, he’s had lots of fun playing over the years. He tries to get to the court at least once a week.",{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":3756,"children":3757},{},[3758],{"type":38,"value":3759},"Avery is a hobby bartender and enjoys making, tasting, and learning about different drinks. He’s mainly a Kentucky bourbon guy but also loves Japanese whisky!",{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":3761,"children":3762},{},[3763],{"type":38,"value":3764},"Avery is a black belt in Pasaryu. This is a Korean mixed martial art which includes karate, kung fu, and Taekwondo. He has also trained and competed with weapons: nunchucks and samurai sword just to name a couple!",{"title":7,"searchDepth":836,"depth":836,"links":3766},[3767],{"id":3605,"depth":1554,"text":3608},"content:team:avery-davis.md","team/avery-davis.md","team/avery-davis",{"_path":3772,"_dir":3567,"_draft":6,"_partial":6,"_locale":7,"title":3773,"description":3774,"name":3773,"ref":3775,"jobTitle":3776,"team":3777,"images":3778,"linkedIn":3780,"quote":3781,"quoteCite":3782,"sequence":3783,"body":3784,"_type":840,"_id":3831,"_source":842,"_file":3832,"_stem":3833,"_extension":845,"category":3567,"minutes":836},"/team/jared-gerling","Jared Gerling","Meet Jared Gerling, one of MKG Marketing’s thoughtful SEO Experts, bringing 10+ years of experience, intentionality, and creativity to the team.","jared-gerling","SEO Expert","SEO Experts",{"landscape":3779},"jared-gerling.webp","jaredgerling","The truth is, most of us discover where we are heading when we arrive.","Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)",55,{"type":25,"children":3785,"toc":3829},[3786,3791,3796,3801,3806,3811],{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":3787,"children":3788},{},[3789],{"type":38,"value":3790},"Jared's journey into digital marketing started with answering a classified ad for a company looking for people with writing backgrounds for a position in SEO. As a graduate of Michigan State University with a degree in Creative Writing, this sounded like the perfect opportunity.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":3792,"children":3793},{},[3794],{"type":38,"value":3795},"This small agency taught him SEO from the ground up, and, after taking a break from digital marketing to receive his MA from DePaul University, Jared jumped back into the field at a medium-sized agency out of Chicago as an SEO analyst.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":3797,"children":3798},{},[3799],{"type":38,"value":3800},"Since then, Jared has worked for large and small marketing agencies for over a decade, providing expert SEO services in almost every industry that has a website on the internet. And with his background in writing, Jared feels most at home in the content and customer facing side of SEO and digital marketing.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":3802,"children":3803},{},[3804],{"type":38,"value":3805},"It was first and foremost the people that drew Jared to MKG. Everyone at MKG has been so in tune with his values and his personality, and they've made his time at MKG easily the best experience of his career.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":3807,"children":3808},{},[3809],{"type":38,"value":3810},"Fun Facts:",{"type":28,"tag":956,"props":3812,"children":3813},{},[3814,3819,3824],{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":3815,"children":3816},{},[3817],{"type":38,"value":3818},"I love to travel with my wife. We've been to many incredible places over the years, and are always on the lookout for our next destination.",{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":3820,"children":3821},{},[3822],{"type":38,"value":3823},"I was a college rower in my younger days. I rowed mostly eights as a port, and competed against some of the best schools in the nation...and lost to most of them.",{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":3825,"children":3826},{},[3827],{"type":38,"value":3828},"I love a really good French Martini.",{"title":7,"searchDepth":836,"depth":836,"links":3830},[],"content:team:jared-gerling.md","team/jared-gerling.md","team/jared-gerling",{"_path":3835,"_dir":3567,"_draft":6,"_partial":6,"_locale":7,"title":3836,"description":3837,"name":3838,"jobTitle":3839,"images":3840,"ref":3842,"sequence":3843,"imageDescription":3844,"body":3845,"_type":840,"_id":3897,"_source":842,"_file":3898,"_stem":3899,"_extension":845,"category":3567,"minutes":836},"/team/kathy-obrien","Kathy Obrien","Meet Kathy O’Brien, MKG Marketing’s amazing executive assistant who consistently supports all of MKG across the many needs of the company.","Kathy O'Brien","Executive Assistant",{"landscape":3841},"kathy-obrien.webp","kathy-obrien",80,"Kathy O’Brien, MKG Marketing’s Executive Assistant, in front of a gray background | MKG Marketing",{"type":25,"children":3846,"toc":3894},[3847,3853,3858,3867,3872,3876],{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":3848,"children":3850},{"className":3849},[3584],[3851],{"type":38,"value":3852},"\nKathy loves details and has managed the finer details of business her entire career.  She started her career in Center City, Philadelphia working for several law firms.  After she was married and had her first son, she left the bustling city to work closer to home at an international publishing company.  In 1994, Kathy and her husband Bill moved with their two sons to Charlotte, North Carolina.  They eventually completed their family with two more boys born in Charlotte.\n",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":3854,"children":3855},{},[3856],{"type":38,"value":3857},"In 2000 they relocated to Chester County, a suburb of Philadelphia. After a hiatus and four sons, Kathy returned to work in Chester County. This time, she gave retail a whirl so that she could be home when her school age boys were home. She quickly found out Ann Taylor was employing one of their best customers. Kathy then spent the following 10+ years in the Non-Profit arena where she did whatever needed to be done to further the mission. No job was too big, small, or unimportant to tackle.",{"type":28,"tag":3859,"props":3860,"children":3861},"blockquote",{},[3862],{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":3863,"children":3864},{},[3865],{"type":38,"value":3866},"Be faithful in small things because it is in them that your strength lies.\nMother Teresa",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":3868,"children":3869},{},[3870],{"type":38,"value":3871},"By February 2020, Kathy was eager to build something for herself and her family. She set off on a new adventure of starting her own business when she was connected with Kerry, Mike, and MKG. Having commuted and worked outside of the home for 10+ years, she was ready to work from home and have a better life balance. She followed the rainbow and found MKG in her pot of gold. MKG is like no other firm or organization for which Kathy has worked. Their standard of people first is evident in every team member, every decision, every meeting, every interaction. They live their standard.",{"type":28,"tag":1371,"props":3873,"children":3874},{"id":3605},[3875],{"type":38,"value":3608},{"type":28,"tag":956,"props":3877,"children":3878},{},[3879,3884,3889],{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":3880,"children":3881},{},[3882],{"type":38,"value":3883},"Kathy’s dislikes: fruit & chocolate together and Tuesday.",{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":3885,"children":3886},{},[3887],{"type":38,"value":3888},"Family: Kathy met her husband Bill in Wildwood, New Jersey after their high school graduations during “Senior Week”. They have 4 sons and 2 grandsons. There hasn’t been a girl born in the O’Brien family in 32 years! You will often hear Kathy saying her boys are the best 4 gifts she’s ever been given.",{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":3890,"children":3891},{},[3892],{"type":38,"value":3893},"Special talent: Baking. Her boys’ (Bill included) favorites are Spritz Cookies and Chocolate Chip Cookies. There is a running family debate as to whether Ricotta Cookies are cookies or biscuits. At Christmas time, Kathy has been known to hide cookies to save some for guests.",{"title":7,"searchDepth":836,"depth":836,"links":3895},[3896],{"id":3605,"depth":1554,"text":3608},"content:team:kathy-obrien.md","team/kathy-obrien.md","team/kathy-obrien",{"_path":3901,"_dir":3567,"_draft":6,"_partial":6,"_locale":7,"title":18,"description":3902,"name":18,"imageDescription":3903,"ref":3904,"jobTitle":3905,"team":3906,"images":3907,"twitter":3909,"linkedIn":3909,"quote":3910,"quoteCite":3911,"sequence":2227,"body":3912,"_type":840,"_id":3961,"_source":842,"_file":3962,"_stem":3963,"_extension":845,"category":3567,"minutes":3708},"/team/kerry-guard","Meet Kerry Guard, one of MKG Marketing’s founders. She currently fills the role of CEO of MKG as well as hosting the podcast, Tea Time with Tech Leaders.","Kerry Guard, MKG Marketing’s Owner/CEO, stands on a street in Guernsey with the Town Church behind her | MKG Marketing","kerry-guard","Owner/CEO","Leadership",{"landscape":3908},"kerry-guard.webp","kerryguard","I don’t have to chase extraordinary moments to find happiness — it’s right in front of me if I’m paying attention and practicing gratitude.","Brené Brown",{"type":25,"children":3913,"toc":3958},[3914,3920,3933,3946,3950],{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":3915,"children":3917},{"className":3916},[3584],[3918],{"type":38,"value":3919},"\nKerry Guard (she/her) is a mom of twins - boy and a girl. She understands what work life balance really looks like and is on a mission to build a company that honors parents having a career and a life. She’s out to prove you really can have both with policies like ensuring 20 days of vacation each year, no client emails after 6PM or weekends, unlimited sick days, and everyday flexibility.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":3921,"children":3922},{},[3923,3925,3931],{"type":38,"value":3924},"She also hosts our podcast, ",{"type":28,"tag":1216,"props":3926,"children":3928},{"href":3927},"/podcasts/marketing-leaders/",[3929],{"type":38,"value":3930},"Tea Time with Tech Leaders",{"type":38,"value":3932},", which brings eight digital marketing experts to your ears every quarter.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":3934,"children":3935},{},[3936,3938,3944],{"type":38,"value":3937},"Kerry is responsible for HR. If you’d like to join MKG where people are first and your expertise matter, Kerry will be with you through the entire interview process ensuring each candidate meets the necessary requirements and gets a fair shot. Want to join MKG and Kerry’s mission of bringing People First to as many people as possible? Check out our ",{"type":28,"tag":1216,"props":3939,"children":3941},{"href":3940},"/about/jobs/",[3942],{"type":38,"value":3943},"Jobs page",{"type":38,"value":3945}," and see if we have a position right for you!",{"type":28,"tag":1371,"props":3947,"children":3948},{"id":3605},[3949],{"type":38,"value":3608},{"type":28,"tag":956,"props":3951,"children":3952},{},[3953],{"type":28,"tag":960,"props":3954,"children":3955},{},[3956],{"type":38,"value":3957},"Kerry now lives in Guernsey — a tiny nook in the world between England and France. Come visit for a spot of tea any time!",{"title":7,"searchDepth":836,"depth":836,"links":3959},[3960],{"id":3605,"depth":1554,"text":3608},"content:team:kerry-guard.md","team/kerry-guard.md","team/kerry-guard",{"_path":3965,"_dir":3567,"_draft":6,"_partial":6,"_locale":7,"title":3966,"description":3967,"name":3966,"ref":3968,"jobTitle":3969,"team":3970,"images":3971,"linkedIn":3973,"sequence":3974,"body":3975,"_type":840,"_id":4026,"_source":842,"_file":4027,"_stem":4028,"_extension":845,"category":3567,"minutes":836},"/team/leigh-snyder","Leigh Snyder","Meet Leigh Snyder, one of MKG Marketing’s amazing digital advertising experts, bringing 15 plus years of experience to the team","leigh-snyder","Digital Advertising Expert","Digital Advertising Experts",{"landscape":3972},"leigh-snyder.webp","leighasnyder",50,{"type":25,"children":3976,"toc":4023},[3977,3983,3988,3993,3998,4003,4008,4013,4018],{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":3978,"children":3980},{"className":3979},[3584],[3981],{"type":38,"value":3982},"\nLeigh has over 15 years of experience of managing Paid Search campaigns. She started her career at Solid Cactus, a full service eCommerce agency in Wilkes Barre Pennsylvania. Having no experience in Paid Search, she learned as she went, starting out in the earlier days of Google Adwords, when Adwords Editor wasn't even being used yet.\n",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":3984,"children":3985},{},[3986],{"type":38,"value":3987},"Leigh loves to create accounts and watch them grow, even more she loves to take a poorly performing account and turn it around. Watching the KPIs increase from changes she has made or new ideas she implements, keeps her career exciting.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":3989,"children":3990},{},[3991],{"type":38,"value":3992},"Managing a wide variety of accounts that include local car dealerships, worldwide clothing stores, online supplement shops to plastic surgeons and much much more, Leigh brings a vast knowledge of creative ways in managing accounts.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":3994,"children":3995},{},[3996],{"type":38,"value":3997},"While working the majority of her career in local offices, the options for expanding her career were becoming less and less. She decided to apply for a remote job (before it was the norm) and was able to get experience that wasn't as prevalent in the smaller area in which she resides.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":3999,"children":4000},{},[4001],{"type":38,"value":4002},"After working from home for the past 6 years the opportunities kept coming and when MKG reached out to her, she knew that there was something special about them and decided to take the leap. The people first environment is not just talked about here, but it is practiced everyday. MKG Marketing is unlike anywhere she has ever worked.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":4004,"children":4005},{},[4006],{"type":38,"value":4007},"Outside of work, Leigh enjoys spending time with her husband Dustin, their blended family (Emma, Casey, Jake & Brayden) and their dog Millie.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":4009,"children":4010},{},[4011],{"type":38,"value":4012},"The kitchen is where you will always find her, she loves to cook and bake all things Gluten Free and no one ever knows. When they are not at a swim meet or a baseball game they love swimming in their pool, long walks on the local trails, renovating their house and binging shows.",{"type":28,"tag":1371,"props":4014,"children":4015},{"id":3605},[4016],{"type":38,"value":4017},"Fun Facts",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":4019,"children":4020},{},[4021],{"type":38,"value":4022},"Although it was just was a short time, at age 19 Leigh drove cross country from a small town in PA and moved to Hollywood Hills, CA. Her view from her kitchen window was the Hollywood sign. Not a bad first apartment.",{"title":7,"searchDepth":836,"depth":836,"links":4024},[4025],{"id":3605,"depth":1554,"text":4017},"content:team:leigh-snyder.md","team/leigh-snyder.md","team/leigh-snyder",{"_path":4030,"_dir":4031,"_draft":6,"_partial":6,"_locale":7,"title":4032,"description":4033,"name":4032,"imageDescription":4034,"ref":4035,"jobTitle":4036,"team":3906,"images":4037,"linkedIn":4035,"quote":4039,"quoteCite":4032,"sequence":4040,"body":4041,"_type":840,"_id":4115,"_source":842,"_file":4116,"_stem":4117,"_extension":845,"category":4031,"minutes":3708},"/team/marketing-leadership/celeste-jacroux","marketing-leadership","Celeste Jacroux","Meet Celeste Jacroux, a strategic GTM partner to MKG and Founder of Sweel Marketing Advisors. She leads Go-to-Market strategy for high-growth companies.","Celeste Jacroux, Founder of Swell Marketing Advisors and MKG Partner","celeste-jacroux","Fractional GTM Leader | Founder, Swell Marketing Advisors",{"landscape":4038},"celeste-jacroux.webp","A great product doesn't win on its own. It wins when the story, the strategy, and the sales motion all pull in the exact same direction.",7,{"type":25,"children":4042,"toc":4112},[4043,4056,4061,4073,4079],{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":4044,"children":4046},{"className":4045},[3584],[4047,4049,4054],{"type":38,"value":4048},"\nCeleste Jacroux is a Go-to-Market architect for companies ready to graduate from \"random acts of marketing\" to a predictable revenue engine. As the Founder of ",{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":4050,"children":4051},{},[4052],{"type":38,"value":4053},"Swell Marketing Advisors",{"type":38,"value":4055}," and a strategic partner to MKG, she brings deep expertise in aligning product, sales, and marketing into a cohesive GTM strategy.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":4057,"children":4058},{},[4059],{"type":38,"value":4060},"Celeste understands that for founders, the hardest phase is often bridging the gap between a great product and the market that needs it. She specializes in clarifying positioning, defining ideal customer profiles (ICPs), and building the strategic roadmap that turns vision into traction.",{"type":28,"tag":41,"props":4062,"children":4063},{},[4064,4066,4071],{"type":38,"value":4065},"At MKG, Celeste steps in as a Marketing Leader for our ",{"type":28,"tag":34,"props":4067,"children":4068},{},[4069],{"type":38,"value":4070},"Marketing Leadership + Activation",{"type":38,"value":4072}," clients. 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