Let's Talk Strategy with Nathan Stenberg

Opening

AnDrae' Jones: Well, hello out there to all you marketing professionals. Welcome to “In My Expert’s Opinion,” the podcast where we answer all the questions that are related to strategy, paid media, SEO and analytics, which are the service lines that we here at MKG specialize in. On this show, we're gonna get to the bottom of all the questions that keep you guys up at night. And at the same time, just give you a glimpse of how our team here at MKG approaches marketing, because not everybody does it the same. So I'm your host, AnDrae’ Jones with the totally made up title of CQA or chief question asker. I've dubbed myself this because I am going to show up every episode full of curiosity and I am determined to get the answers to all of your burning questions when it comes to the world of digital marketing. Typically, whenever you're faced with a challenge, the most logical thing to do is just ask an expert, someone who's been there done that already. So today, the expert that I've brought to the show is Nathan. Nathan started off as our SEO expert, but has since moved up into the role of strategist for MKG. He's also my gaming partner. I trust Nate with my virtual life as he's constantly carrying me on his back through battle. So that's my guy. Together, we're going to demystify the world of marketing with the team here at MKG. One question at a time.

Conversation

AnDrae' Jones: Welcome to the show. Nathan, I do have some questions for you. Hopefully, you’ve got some answers. But let's start off by telling our audience who you are and why you're qualified to speak on such topics.

Nathan Stenberg: Thanks, AnDrae’. My name is Nathan Stenberg. I've been working in the field of marketing for a very long time now, probably almost 20 years. 15 to 20 years, but primarily in the digital space coming through front end developments and SEO. And as AnDrae’ said, I was an SEO expert at MKG for about two and a half years before I moved into the strategist role, which I've been fulfilling for the past almost a year now. But yeah, I've worked with and optimized over 1000 websites in my career and have spent a lot of time thinking strategically about how to grow brands’ organic traffic as well as just overall how they can connect the website to their overarching digital marketing strategy.

AnDrae' Jones: Well, I do get a ton of questions. Some of these questions are sent in by people. Some of these questions are questions that I get asked every time we're talking with potential clients, or if they send me a message and reach out. So the one question I did want to start off with for you here is do you provide Account Based Marketing or ABM services? I get that question all the time.

Nathan Stenberg: Yes, the short answer is yes, we do. We do offer Account Based Marketing Services and can target specific accounts, if we have listed those accounts or work to generate those lists, depending on the tools that are available to us that the clients have or that we have internally.

AnDrae' Jones: Is there like a… do you have a preference of who they should be going after? Or do you prefer that they have the list ready to go? Does it matter?

Nathan Stenberg: Yeah, it's…I mean, it just depends. I think that that kind of plays into what services we need to bring to the table. Because we can spend the time to develop the audience personas, if those don't exist, we can spend the time to research those and then come up with a list. Or if a list already exists, you know, we definitely (especially at the beginning of engagements), we'd like to trust that our clients know who they're trying to market to, at the very least to start with. That way, we have a jumping off point and it allows us to get things spun up faster. That being said, my marketing 101 is if you don't know who you're marketing to then you shouldn't be spending money trying to market to them. So there's definitely a reason to make sure that the list is accurate. So some research should be done.

AnDrae' Jones: So let's say if they showed up with a couple of accounts that they had in mind, MKG could find a couple more to add onto that list. Have you considered going after a few of these people?

Nathan Stenberg: Quite easily. Yeah, we use tools such as Sixth Sense. That’s one of the tools we tend to use pretty frequently from an ABM standpoint. LinkedIn Sales Navigator has phenomenal targeting capabilities to be able to pull in and identify prospects very easily. So there's a lot of great tools out there that we can use. And if we have a general idea of who we're trying to go for, we can definitely expand on that list with no problem.

AnDrae' Jones: This is a multi-part question here. But how long will it take me to get started? What do you need from me? And when should I expect results?

Nathan Stenberg: Those are all great questions. And how long it takes to get started we can kind of just depends on how much legwork needs to be done to get to the point where we can effectively launch campaigns. If a client comes in and they've spent time developing their personas and spent time building their marketing strategy. We’ll take much more of an action focused approach to the engagement and we can spin stuff up quickly. I would still say it's probably going to be about 2 to 4 weeks to get campaigns launched as we kind of like pulled together all the research, pulled together the creative, etc. So it's probably going to be a two to four week kind of a timeline. That’s just a guestimation. Don't hold me to that. That's if we have everything, we know what we need, etc. If we don't know who we’re targeting, well, then we'd probably need to throw some research in front of that. So that could expand that to six…somewhere from four to six weeks. What we would need from a client, potentially, if it's ABM specific, of course, a client list is great. At the very least, we need to know who they're trying to target, who their ideal target audience is. Or audiences are, depending on if there's more than one. We don't produce creative in-house. So if there's any imagery that's needed, any videos that are needed, we need to have those produced and sent over to us. And we can support to some level with ad copy. Writing of ad copy and messaging. We can support a little bit there. But we do have at least a review and approval process. So there'll be time that's involved with that. It just depends on what we need. When should we expect results? From a paid media kind of side where a lot of the Account Based Marketing stuff works, a lot of times it takes the platforms a few weeks to kind of learn your audiences and what's going on. It's very common, at least in the Google ad space, where it's about…Our PPC experts, I think, say about four to six weeks before the engines really get firing pretty solidly. And we can kind of make a solid assessment of if something's working or not. So we hope, obviously, we'd love to have results, you know, the day after we launch a campaign. But the true reality is, I would say, it's probably going to be some time after launch. So let's say we launched a campaign today, it's probably going to be a solid, solid four weeks, four to six weeks before we're seeing something that we can iterate from. If the results are positive, we want to scale. If the results are not positive, we want to pivot. And so we kind of want to go at that point. So I would say, minimum, probably four to six weeks, especially from the paid side. If we're talking organic search, that’s less Account Based Marketing more just in general digital marketing. Organic search is probably gonna be somewhere 90 to 180 days, from the time that a piece of an optimization is implemented to the time that it impacts the performance of traffic to that page.

AnDrae' Jones: Do you have any examples, or case studies, or things that you've worked on on the ABM side that you could share as far as quick wins or great results?

Nathan Stenberg: There was one we were building a podcast for. We were building a list of potential targets for podcast guests using LinkedIn Sales Navigator. I'm not sure honestly. Because I didn't perform the Outreach, I'm not sure how it performed after that. Our goal was to create the process and then generate the initial list for the outreach to begin. It was really successful in very easily identifying and pulling the prospects together. I was able to easily go in with the demographic targeting capabilities and identify the type of people that we'd want to speak to for that podcast. And, in this case, the podcast was looking to speak to marketers and their journey in marketing; a looking from then to now kind of experience. We needed someone who was in a senior level in their role. We also needed people that were in men's brands. This podcast is focused primarily in the male accessories, clothing, etc, space. And so we need to be able to identify big brands or brands that were affiliated with or geared towards men, but still had been around 10 years or so that they had senior marketing levels that are big enough to have those levels of marketers that have been in the business a while. LinkedIn Sales Navigator really provided us with a lot of great opportunities. And we were able to produce a pretty solid list and a process that could be recreated moving forward to identify those people.

AnDrae' Jones: Thanks for that. Shifting gears away from ABM here. When working with clients in the same industry. Again, cybersecurity, a lot of them kind of protect against some of the same things. How do you avoid your current clients from competing with each other? Or is that unavoidable? How do you guys approach that?

Nathan Stenberg: This is kind of a tough question because the reality is every single one of our clients, if we're in the cybersecurity space and that's our niche, are competing with each other at the very highest level for cybersecurity. So we put the lens of organic SEO on it. If you're a cybersecurity company, you're going, and this is just a hypothetical. You'd want to rank for the term “cybersecurity company” because you're a cybersecurity company. But if there's 150,000 cybersecurity companies out there, then you're all competing in the same pool for this current title of cybersecurity company. Obviously, there's only so many results in Google. So only the best, or the oldest, or the most tenured, or the ones with the highest domain authority, or the biggest ones, whatever that ends up being, will retain the best ranks for “cybersecurity company.” But it doesn't mean that you don't want to optimize your website for something else because there's just too much competition there. You are a cybersecurity company, you have to optimize for that. And so there's always competition. So the short answer is there will always be competition with us when we have cybersecurity clients because we're generally going to be targeting some of the same stuff because that's just fundamentally sound. Now, how can we differentiate some of the cybersecurity companies that we work for do? Niche inside of the cybersecurity industry and so therefore, it allows us to do really kind of targeted focus on the optimization and the performance around the things that that specific client does well or wants to do well and wants to be ranked for. Those are differentiators, but then sometimes there is overlap. And so generally, there will be competition there. Whether it's like for detection and response, which is kind of holistic to what a lot of the platforms do. Vulnerability Management, you know, again, something that a lot of platforms are doing, and are able to support. Again, those are kind of higher level. So that's where you have to kind of look at the real differentiators at the product level then and what they're bringing to the table that's different. But there is still overlapping competitiveness. The other thing that I would say is this, regardless of industry, for me, personally, my strategy and approach to digital marketing is not going to change. So even if we're in cybersecurity, I'm going to be running the same logic. I'm not going to change my logic completely. I'm not going to do digital marketing differently for this company over here than how I'm going to do it for over here. I'm going to do what's best when I’ve figured out how to work best all the time. So everybody's going to get the same approach and the same strategic thinking that's going in. So there's that aspect as well, where the competition becomes about Alright, well, who wants to get the money? Who wants to spend the money? Right, and who wants to invest the time to get the changes that they need to see? Who wants to build 20 pages of content versus, you know, company over here is like, ah, we only want to build five, or we only have resources to build five. The company that’s gonna build 20 is going to perform better organically. So it becomes more about competition and like, are you willing to get in on the court and compete. At the end of the day, that's what it really all boils down to. Because I don't think like really…from strategist to strategist, there might be little differentiators, differences in how they approach things. But on the whole, like, I think in most companies, in my experience, there's still a holistic fundamental foundation to how things are done strategically. If you're putting together a strategy, the agency's got a way that it's going to produce and present it. It'll customize it and tweak it for the individual. But at the fundamental foundation, it's always the same for me. It's if this then this is the fundamental driver of strategy. And so that way there's an option to say this is what we think is right. But if it doesn't work, then it's going to work here. Or if it does work, then we're going to do this. It's got two choices to go from basic logic, programming and strategy. And that can be applied to any individual channel, but it can also be applied holistically across all the channels as well. It's an interesting conversation, but specifically to cybersecurity. We're going to be competing with ourselves internally all the time.

AnDrae' Jones: But it just sounds like it's not something to be overly concerned about. Because there's ways to get yourself out there and compete.

Nathan Stenberg: Yeah, it's not something to be concerned with. I mean, I think you could try to find someone who doesn't have any cybersecurity clients. So you can be their only cybersecurity client. And I think there's…it's not a bad approach, don't get me wrong. But the one thing that that company is going to have to do is they're gonna have to ramp up and learn all about cybersecurity. Whereas you're coming into a company that's done that like with MKG. Like, we've done cybersecurity a lot. We know we have won cybersecurity businesses and lost cybersecurity businesses over the years. One of our biggest accounts that we had for multiple years left recently, and that's fine. But we have now tons of experience, a decade plus almost of experience. If we combine our clients, well over a decade of cybersecurity specific experience, with some big names in the industry, and you're not going to find that just any agency. And that's the advantage. So while there will be competent, internal competition, and sometimes it depends on who the target audience is. if one company is targeting enterprise and the other one is targeting small business. They can be offering the same service, but it doesn't matter because we're going to be targeting something completely different over here. And messaging is going to be different. The people we talk to are going to be different. The sales cycle is going to be different. Whereas over here, you know, we can target just one person. So we can have people in the same space targeting different audiences, but we're going to be able to bring a level of understanding to the space that most agencies are not going to.

AnDrae' Jones: You mentioned that we lost one of our biggest cybersecurity clients. But they left better than they came to us, right?

Nathan Stenberg: Oh, absolutely. We went through a lot of massive scaling with them. They came to us when they were- I think we called it startup scale. There were three S's. We used to have a deck for it. Basically there was a startup, there was a middle section, and then this scaling section. They kind of came to us when they were in the startup role long before I started here, and were with us for almost seven years. Yeah, we grew with them through many many different turns and twists and, honestly even though we've lost them, we now work with 1,2,3 new businesses because of our relationship. The relationships that we developed during that time in that tenure with that company. As people left that company, they reached out and brought us on to their new companies. I know losing a client sounds awful, but it was growing pains. They were acquired by I think an equity group. So when the equity came through, they came in and cleaned house. Honestly, after seven years with an engagement, it's a long time in the digital marketing world. It's usually like a job. You're with a company for a couple years and then it's time to move on. That's just the normal shake and bake of the industry and that's totally fine. We were with that client for over five years, at least, maybe even closer to seven. So when it was time to shake and bake, great. But we shaked and baked and won like three new plants. Three or four new plants grew out of that one seed. So it's not a bad thing that we lost. It's a good thing, because now we can branch out and we have all this expertise. And now we can take that and distill that out into different areas. And it just allows us to grow and it's been really positive.

AnDrae' Jones: Yeah, definitely. I'm always surprised with how many people leave one company and go to another one. They immediately come back because they had such a great experience before. They know how you guys work and everything and they know they can count on you. It definitely says a lot about the quality of work that they're receiving. But this was another question to kind of piggyback off of the competition thing. It almost always follows after they ask about competition. They ask who else do you work with?

Nathan Stenberg: In the cybersecurity space?

AnDrae' Jones: Yeah. There's still a little bit curious

Nathan Stenberg: Like specific clients?

AnDrae' Jones: Yeah, they just asked for some names

Nathan Stenberg: Well, I mean, I could name some I just don't know which ones we can and cannot because of NDAs and whatnot. But I mean, I would say ExtraHop. I think we can probably call them out. We’ve got case studies on their website. That was the client that we are not working with any longer. But we worked with him for a extensive number of years. Probably the biggest one that I work on right now is Qualys. Very, very well known in the industry. They’ve been around a long time and produce a very, very nice product. And yeah, so I would say that's probably the two biggest ones. We work with a few others that are a little bit smaller and kind of are a little bit more niche. But yeah, I would say those are probably the two big hitters as of late. And we’ve worked with others over the years as well.

AnDrae' Jones: Are you a full service agency? What do you do? What don't you do, like content creation, for example? And if that's the case, and that's what I need, and I still want to partner with you guys, do you have partners that you can bring in to cover the things that you don't service? Like writers?

Nathan Stenberg: Yeah, TLDR. Yes. Except for the full service agency part. We're not a full service agency. We provide SEO, analytics, digital advertising/ paid media, and marketing strategy. Digital marketing strategy services. Those are the four core services that we provide. But of course, content creation is important for ads. So is putting together creative, putting together imagery and stuff like that for ads is important as well. And we don't do that kind of creation, the actual content creation. But to support that, we do have a content creation process that we can manage the actual workflow process that goes from a brief all the way through to managing creation and implementation as needed. So we can bring in writers if we need writing staff. We can facilitate that. We’ll produce outlines. We’ll basically put the ball on the tee so then the content producers can go hit the ball and bring it back to us. And we can take it to the next step and manage that workflow all the way through. This allows us to be a lot more impactful in getting stuff done. We've seen a lot of greater success getting stuff done because of that. When I say getting stuff implemented, a lot of times in our experience or in the agency experience, it's real… It's all good to sell them the plan, but then actually executing against the plan it can become a challenge. And so the way that we've found great success is to try to take as much of the workflow management out of the client's hands. So that way, they can focus on the points of the workflow that they need to be focused on and not actually that they couldn't be focused on. But it may just take more time than they have. Because a lot of times our points of contact are getting pulled in different directions. And so the content process is super impactful to being able to kind of guide and drive that when we need new pieces of content produced. But for the actual execution of the content being produced, we do either partner with the internal resources of the client, or we can bring in a third party for creative creation and or writing as needed

AnDrae' Jones: And the people that we would tap on the shoulder to bring in as a partner, they would have experience writing in that person's industry, correct?

Nathan Stenberg: We do our best to identify those if we can. That being said, there are times when we can't. One of the engagements we had with one of our previous clients, we worked with another agency to produce 10 pages of content. And they actually built into the process. They had their own kind of content workflow that we kind of merged in with and they built in subject matter expert interviews into the process so they could become experts before they actually wrote the content. So there are ways if we don't have someone who is specifically a cybersecurity writer, that we can make sure that they sit down and get the information they need to be able to effectively write about the topic.

AnDrae' Jones: Alright, well, I lied, I do have one more question for you. Let's see. So this was another question I received. I noticed that MKG likes to start off with strategy. What are the benefits of starting off with strategy? Is that just for someone that is new in the role? Meaning, you know, they come from a different company, they're walking into a VP of Marketing spot, CMO spot. And that's, you know, the main time you need strategy? And then for the people that have already been in the role, let's say, if they've been in that role for a while, and they feel like they already have a good feel for what they need, would MKG still want to do some form of strategy? Or just go off of what they're saying?

Nathan Stenberg: No, that's a great question. And it's a valid one because a lot of people are like why do I need strategy? And what value does that bring in? And a lot of times, it's hard to see the tangible benefits from having a strategy. So the benefits of starting with strategy is like…I go back to like marketing 101. If you don't know who you're marketing to, then you shouldn't be spending money. Because you're just kind of throwing it out there. It's like fishing. You may throw your fishing pole in the ocean and catch a great white shark, but the odds are you're not going to catch the great white shark fishing off of the beach. It may happen, but like the probability is very slim. And so you want to know who you're marketing to. So you can correctly bait your fishing pole and go to the right size body of water and put your fishing pole there to catch the right fish that's going to actually be the one you want to eat. You want to be targeted. So that's what strategy brings. It brings that value of being able to get in front of the right person in the right place in time. And then sometimes, you know, especially in the enterprise world, it's not necessarily about getting that in front of the right person at the right place in time where they're going to sign up for a demo, or they're going to buy the product. It's about getting in front of the right person at the right place in time of where they are in the buying cycle. So that you're getting in front of them with a retargeting ad that's focused at the middle of the funnel with content that's middle of the funnel. That's just providing another layer of trust and credibility. So that way, when they’re ready whether that's six months down the road or not… So it's really this strategy can play in at multiple levels, and can inform how we're reaching the individuals that ultimately are going to become clients. But also reaching them before they even know they need to become clients. Starting to kind of get them in that process isn't just for someone new in the role, not specifically. I think it's really more…I think people who are new in a role and are coming in and trying to kind of establish themselves. If they're coming into a VP or a CMO kind of role, and they've got a tight timeline, they don't have a specific, pre… A lot of times people in those roles have gone through the agency world, they've gone through the marketing, you know, they've climbed the marketing ladder. They may have a preset strategy kind of plan that they go in to implement. So that may already be there. But it's also very possible that they're like… I'm coming from the consumer packaged goods space. And now I'm in cybersecurity, and I'm not exactly sure. I’ve got marketing strategies, but I don't know, specifically cybersecurity. And that's where we can kind of pair in with that and support someone that's maybe newer in the role. But it's not necessarily for someone who's new in the role. Qualys is a great example of this. They were around a long time, but their original CEO was really not invested or didn't really feel that marketing was important. For like, 20 plus years, they built themselves up without any real focus on marketing, until we started working with them. It was really interesting. So like, sometimes you just need the strategy because it's never been done. So there are opportunities there as well. And I also feel it's always a good thing to circle back and check in on it. As this kind of goes back to like, you know, every two years, you'd usually kind of bounce into a new agency. But a lot of times it's that refresh that needs to occur. You need to have someone come in with another set of eyes. Maybe it's the same company, but it's a different strategist that comes in and sits and takes another look at that account and kind of says, hey. What if we go in this direction, where we've seen some good success here, but we're still missing or whatever. Having a second set of eyes is not a bad thing. And it's always good to QA and assess and iterate as needed. Because, you know, sometimes we get tunnel vision. So it can be good for someone who's already been in the role as well. And then also an outside point of view. A lot of times when you're internal at a company and you've been there a long time. Again, going to the tunnel, tying into that tunnel vision kind of thought process. The routine is the routine and you just need that third party point of view ,that 30,000 point of view that says hey, let's look at it from up here. And it can break out and drive great results because of it. If you feel like you have a good idea of what you need, I don't think that necessarily requires a strategy deliverable per se. To put it in that box, it doesn't need it. But I think the opportunity is the part where I'd say we'd want to still have some strategy as a line item, some strategy time. Because if you've already got a plan of what you need, then what's really going to benefit us is we're going to need to know how you want to execute that plan. So being able to have the strategist come in with their level of expertise, because they've been doing this for 10 plus years, and be able to partner and get the download. Hey, here's our marketing plan. That's what we're going after. This is what we want to achieve. Like, here's our audience personas, here's why we're going with this strategy and get the download from the CMO, from the VP, from the director, whoever that is. And really just kind of ultimately become their support, their point of contact, someone who's on that same level playing field with them and has that same mindset. Okay, this is what we're aligned on. This is what we're going to do. And then they can hand the reins off to be like alright, now you go translate this to the discipline team. So you can execute against this. Like, I think that's the opportunity. So it wouldn't be like us putting together a deliverable in a deck or a presentation as much as the client saying, Hey, here's our plan. Here's how we want to do this. Now you go and make sure that your teams are able to do that. And you become kind of more of that middleman that translates the marketing strategies that already exists to the discipline team.

AnDrae' Jones: I believe you touched on it a little bit. In your response, you mentioned iterating. Just because you start off strategy a certain way doesn't necessarily mean that the strategy will stay the same all the way through, right? As you learn, you'll tweak things. What do you usually see over the lifetime of an engagement?

Nathan Stenberg: Great question. So strategically, like, fundamentally, my strategic approach is if this then this. So it's always based in iteration. It's very rare that you're going to like, nail it on the first try, especially in the paid lens. I'd say organic search is a little bit different. Just because it's a little bit more stable… a little bit. I would say the paid side is a little…it's definitely more iterative. And we spent a lot of time tweaking those campaigns to get stuff right. Adding new keywords, always manipulating. But the strategy itself generally doesn't pivot. An example of this is one of our more recent clients. We actually have three personas that they've identified, that we're using. There’s one that we felt was pretty, this is gonna be our guy. This is gonna be the one who's going to probably convert the most. This is going to be the one who's who we need to speak to, is going to be the primary stakeholder decision maker person. And we had a pretty solid gut feeling. And even the client was like, Yeah, we think so too. But to prove that out, we actually tested copy and messaging towards the other decision maker, which is more of a C level individual versus a director, head of individual. And so we just finished some of the landing page tests using copy for that. And we determined that, well, our gut level was correct. In that case, Tim, the Tim persona is the one we need to be going after, which is really cool. What does Tim prefer to consume? Does he want to sign up for a demo? Or does he want to maybe download a white paper? And so we actually ran a secondary test that tested the landing page content with a demo signup option at the top versus a white paper signup option at the top. And we found that in two out of three, the white paper option was holding more and so that gives us a lot of opportunity to indicate and pivot in a couple of ways. From the marketing standpoint, we know that the people who are converting primarily are probably more middle of the funnel, because they're not ready to click that sign up for a free demo yet or are trying to get a free trial. They're not ready to do that yet. Okay, well, that's great because now that means we just need to nurture them a little bit more. So now from a marketing standpoint, we can say, Okay, people who are getting this white paper, we need to now follow up. Depending on where they converted on the website and the topic that was in because our ads, our ad groups are very topic focused. Well, now we need to get them in an email chain that then contains more information about that topic. And we can kind of nurture them back around. Similarly, we can do that with retargeting as well, if there's enough traffic. So it's a constantly iterative process. it's important to do that with the strategy as a whole, for the most part. We're not going to come in and start a strategy, deliver a strategy…If we were doing a full strategy, deliver a strategy, and then in 90 days like completely pivot from that strategy. Unless it's just way off base, like the client’s unhappy or there's just something majorly wrong with it. But on the whole, I don't see it really changing much. It's really more the execution and how we iterate based off of that strategy. Because the strategy again, for me personally, is if this then this. And if this is not working, then we're gonna go do this to fix it. And so it constantly needs to be iterated on.

AnDrae' Jones: Well, I think we're coming in time here. I feel like I had you in the interrogation room grilling you and you had an answer for everything. So I appreciate you letting us put you in the hot seat there.

Nathan Stenberg: Yeah, no worries. That was really fun. I was more than happy to do it.

AnDrae' Jones: Absolutely. I think if anyone was lost when it comes to what exactly strategy is or had questions, we got them pointed in the right direction.

Outro

AnDrae' Jones: I want to give a huge shout out to all you marketing pros out there listening. Like I always say, without you guys, Nathan and I would just be here talking to ourselves. So thank you guys for giving us an audience. Most importantly, if you have any questions or comments or just want to say hi, I do want to invite you to drop a line in the comments section or just shoot me a message on LinkedIn. That way, I can include these questions in future episodes. I want to give a shoutout to the host MKG Marketing. MKG is focused on helping all B2B tech companies get found, get leads, and close deals. So if you’re struggling to generate leads or close deals, let us help you. You can learn more at mkgmarketinginc.com. Thanks again, everyone for tuning in. And remember to stay curious.