From Safe to Standout: Repositioning Your Brand with Beatrice Gutknecht

Overview:

In this episode of Tea Time with Tech Marketing Leaders, host Kerry Guard welcomes Beatrice Gutknecht — founder of Badassery by B and host of The Art of Branding Podcast. Beatrice shares her powerful journey from navigating a military coup to creating a globally recognized branding practice. Together, they dive deep into what it really means to build a brand that resonates. They explore the difference between rebranding and repositioning, the importance of team alignment, how to infuse brand voice with personality, and the role of feedback and iteration in keeping a brand relevant. Beatrice’s insights are bold, unfiltered, and packed with real-world examples — making this a must-listen for marketers, founders, and B2B leaders.

Transcript:

Kerry Guard 0:00

Hello, I'm Kerry Gard. Welcome back to Tea Time with Tech Marketing leaders. I had a new website launch. Yes, website launch week. Big week for me. I'm also starting to kick in a cold, so that's cool. I'm so grateful for our sponsor. We have a sponsor show up once a month, and this month it is improvato is back. Improvato is back. If you're running Google ads or trade desk campaigns, I'm wondering why your ROAs. Is it where it should be? Improvato might be the partner you didn't know you needed. They help you analyze your campaigns at a granular level to uncover inefficiencies that are quietly draining your performance so you can course correct faster and make your budget work harder. You can check out Improvato.io forward slash T, dash time and get a free audit. Make it happen. Make it so you just wait. Folks, you just wait. Do I have a guest for you? Founder of Badassery by B, host of The Art of branding podcast, and a globe trotting strategist who's built brands across continents from luxury hotels to architectural hardware in North America, Beatrice brings the kind of energy that turns a stagnant brand into a magnet. What sets Beatrice part isn't just her ability to craft unforgettable brand identities, though she does that on the regular. It's her unwavering belief that brand strategy actually work. Not just look good on a slide deck. Her clients walk away from more than a style guide. They walk with a stronger referrals, faster sales cycle and customers who stick. Beatrice, welcome to the show.

Beatrice Gutknecht 1:33

Thank you so much for having me on, Kerry. This is that was quite an intro. Girl, like, oh my god, like hitting right into it,yeah, man, yeah, man, I gotta do you justice. I gotta do you justice.

Kerry Guard 1:42

I have been following you and you don't hold back. So I gotta set this up. I gotta set this up before we get into the heart of our conversation around how brand should fuel your revenue. Let's talk about, you know, I just gave sort of an overview of what you do, but I'd love to know how you got there. So share with us your journey.

Beatrice Gutknecht 2:09

Quite, quite a journey. And you know, the very beginning of badass, right by me, was actually fueled by a military coup in Myanmar and my dad passing away, and COVID, just put those three together. And it's basically the storm of pushing back against like, hey, you know, you know what we only get to do this one. So what have I been waiting for? Why am I always like looking to others like what? You know? Everyone's like, oh, you know, just play it safe, get a stable income, then you can do what you want. So, you know what? Like that has become one of the guiding wise for badass Ray, and I'd like to push back against those social norms. Badass Ray was born originally in like when I was in Bangkok. I moved away from Myanmar, from the military coup there, and built from there, and really honed into that passion before

Kerry Guard 3:20

Myanmar and the coup. What? What skill set would you say you built along the way that brought you to where you are today?

Beatrice Gutknecht 3:30

The determination, mainly because, if the moment that you stop doing anything, or you like, you know, this isn't working, whatever it is, applying for jobs, you know, building your brand, building your business. The moment that you stop, it's like giving up everything that you've built. Same thing is like, you know, you've built your brand, you've built a certain element of trust, and then you suddenly rebrand. It's like you've just lost that overnight. So that determination, regardless of what people say, and the confidence that really clicked later on in life, or clicked back on because I had as a kid, and then school and all these things being like, Oh, hey, um, you know, you you shouldn't have a voice, you know, it's go see what everybody else is saying.

Kerry Guard 4:35

Yeah, yeah. So really, yeah.

Beatrice Gutknecht 4:38

So that clicking back on later on in life, when I was head hunted for a real estate role and guided by this amazing, badass mentor, like she's a badass boss, basically, who brought that confidence and. Both that interest and that passion again, like, hey, like you are your own person.

Kerry Guard 5:04

You have great ideas. Let's hear them. Yes, I don't think I went to school for photography, and they kept telling us to go look at the greats. You're not reinventing the wheel. Go see what the greats used to do, and it's like so you want me to just regurgitate what's already been done cool. And that is why I'm not a photographer today. People took the creativity straight out of me. So I love what you're saying. Beatrice, of like, finding that drive. Again, I have clients who tell me I work with you because I know that you'll die trying and figuring it out and there I So, yes, I so feel you on needing that drive and in a marketing position to not give up and understanding like that, we have a unique voice.

Beatrice Gutknecht 5:51

I think we're so often looking at, you know, be it in comments, in content. This is why there are so many similar pieces of content: because we're checking what everybody else is doing. Hey, this post by XYZ is working. Let's use that format.

Kerry Guard 6:20

Yeah, there's a blessing and a curse in that, for sure. We're gonna dig into that in a second before we get there. What's, um, what's a challenge you're currently facing, what's hard right now and feels like it's in your way of feeling successful in what you're doing, or maybe you do feel successful and you're good and there's nothing in your way. If we

Beatrice Gutknecht 6:38

feel successful and there's nothing in the way, then probably it's time to start something new. I really do. So what I would say at the moment is sometimes in when you're connecting to new people, and the way that I connect with new people, it is to have a conversation to start, because at the end of the day, if the vibe is not there, we're not going to end up working well together, right? So it is going from that connection to the acceptance to to continuing that conversation. So it does, like, kind of have that little friction right after connecting, the connections are accepted. Because it might be slightly crazy in my connection requests slightly, it's five minutes, but yeah, going past that second or third message being like, oh, you know, let's talk about going on, yeah.

Kerry Guard 7:46

So the challenge there is getting to that, yeah, getting to that conversation, yeah, to get that flowing.

Beatrice Gutknecht 7:52

So that's, that's what I've been working on at the moment. And I do think it is really about trying and testing, because at the end of the day, it is that human element that that works. So it's not just like, what sales scripts can I use? No like that. It is just trying different approaches and understanding. At the end of the day, we're all here trying to run a business, and we only have a limited amount of time, and it is trying to make the best use of that few lines of conversation.

Kerry Guard 8:34

Yes to all of that, it's we're on the struggle bus with that as well. I have my gal, Ashley early, where she is out there pounding the pavement to figure out how to get to that conversation, not a sales pitch. I want to I think we're saying the same thing, which I love. And what's so important about, you know, this, this sort of sales process that for the market that we're in is that it cannot, you cannot ask for a sales meeting, right, and nor should you right. But figuring out what's going to spark that conversation of how you can be helpful and fuel the network through value is like, what's that? And that is such a hard nut to crack. So I feel you on that. Ashley and I are in the struggle. Are on the struggle bus with you. Beatrice, you are not alone in that whatsoever. Before we get in the heart of our conversation, two things. One is, if you're with us, hello, Shelley. Kay, thanks for joining us. Anyone else who's with us, please comment. We are here to answer your burning questions around, how can you bring brand awareness to actually make business impact? We are going to build that bridge for you and give you actual insights to go get after it. So we want to make sure you walk away feeling like you can go do the thing. So please, please, please, comment, comment, comment, if you're watching this. It's not live. Have no fear. Still drop in your questions. Beatrice and I will circle back with you and make sure we get those answered. We are here for you. Go Team. Go team. As a friendly reminder, this episode is brought to you by impervato, who helps you bring all of your data together in one platform, so you can really see where people are coming from, how many touch points they had, and if they are ultimately, you know what's ultimately driving that pipeline, right? So it's in terms of attribution. These days. It's not really the one size fits all this one thing made this thing happen. It's lots of things, lots of little things. What are those little things? What is that journey? What is that path? And improvato can help you uncover that. So thank you provato for being our sponsor today. We appreciate you. All right, Beatrice, let's get into it. Let's talk about let's talk about this. So you've said before that branding isn't fluff, it's fuel, which is totally where I stole that from tell us what that means, especially in B to B service businesses. You know, this is more than a logo. Brand is more than a logo. It isn't fluff. How is it fuel?

Beatrice Gutknecht 11:12

The way I see businesses often approach a rebrand is like the keyword at the moment, these days, right? It's like, oh, you know, we need to have a rebrand, rebrand. And the way I see it is that it should not be the go to because it is basically like putting a fresh cloud of paint directly on peeling the old paint, the peeling old paint.

Kerry Guard 11:42

Such a good analogy, exactly.

Beatrice Gutknecht 11:46

And at the end of the day, it's why I see places like Jake, you are, oh my god, there's a pretty little thing. There's been a few rebrands, and they're big rebrands. And I'm just like, What are you guys doing? Even like Twitter to x, the core is still the same. And that's why, when you're what I recommend, instead of being like, going for a rebrand, go to refresh what you already have, or reposition. Because if you're going to do a proper rebrand, that's like gutting out your apartment, right? You're starting from scratch. You want to, like, completely go through all of your values, what? Like, everything, right? So go with the reposition. Try to see, okay, what is it that we stand for? What about our team? Get your team involved in the process. So, yeah, no, the logo, the visuals, even the message, that is the very last few things that I would even get to right, we're talking about, like, the why? Why are you doing all this so the rest of the team can follow along with that and have one cohesive image feels to my core.

Kerry Guard 13:13

I'm starting another website next week for a company, and they're like, we just need a website. I was like, You're no no. Like your website's one single page, and it doesn't really say much. You need positioning, messaging, how, where we're going to sit you in the market to make you different from other people. Your logo is fine. Your colors love the grade. Rock on. I don't need you to repaint anything. Don't go repaint your trucks. That sounds like a terrible idea, but we do need to find where we're going to sit you within the market of your competitors, and how the landscapes have changed, how beta buyers have moved, how we're going to build that trust. And it was that differentiator of how I talked about working with them, of why they chose me over the other company who was just going to give them a website, right? And so yes, to that of and to not having to regret, like, there's a reason why you all started this company to begin with. Back to Basics, folks, what's the problem you solve? And who do you solve it for? Like, that's exactly I do agree with my professors a little bit.

Beatrice Gutknecht 14:27

Stop reinventing the wheel there. I mean, the biggest thing that I would suggest for most businesses is to reposition your business right, and there are different ways to approach it. I can, like, go into an example of, like, what, what I did for a client and how we did that, but it's like, hey, how? How can you look at like, Okay, what? What are the processes that we're doing? What are we doing differently? What are we not doing that? The rest of the industry is doing right? What can we lean into in that way? Or, say, for example, look into a different industry completely right. Take from two no ones, right, the no one in your industry and the no one from another industry. So like, say, for example, there's the brand called Halo top. They started off they went to the ice cream industry. But there are so many competitors in the market that have been established for very long time versus so then they looked into like, okay, hey, what about the gym supplements industry? So it's taking the known to providing. Hey, how about a post-workout? Ice cream with protein.

Kerry Guard 16:03

That's a differentiator.

Beatrice Gutknecht 16:04

Yes it's a differentiator. You're, you're you're pivoting. And the rest of your industry, they can't do anything right? They are so busy looking at each other and following each other that by the time they see what you're doing, they're going to be behind you. You're going to be the established one or and this leans into what I did with my client. Have a look at the buyer journey. Really dig into like, Okay, what's going on? Where are the pain points? So for them, what we did was, okay, what's the one problem that keeps on coming up? So for context, they're an architectural door and cabinet hardware business, and their custom the end user used to, you know, there come to the house or have a look and like, hey, you know, like, I saw this in the magazine, this kind of entry way. It's really fancy. It's so nice and because by the time they came into the picture, the house is already got the bare bones. So it's built, like the build a grade door, the regular door, and the entryway, and then we're like, Ah, sorry. Well, based on what you've already built, we can't do that. So like, okay, let's have a look what at what point in the process, that design process, etc. Like, when can they come in and they reply to me? They're like, okay, so it would be best when the designer is doing the drawing, so that they can get, like, that special kind of doorway in there. And I'm like, All right. How do we resonate with them? How do we connect with them at that point? Because, like, you still need to make it relevant, right? So it's like, okay, they're always out there, looking for ideas, looking for resources, like, how can we be ahead? How can we be the best designer in the market. How can we be the one that's chosen? You're not making it about you. You're making it about them. So finally, we pivoted and repositioned them as a resource to designers from everybody else who is still focused on coming in later on in the journey.

Kerry Guard 18:43

That's so smart in terms of, like identifying because that changed your audience too, right? So we don't always, you know who we think we need to be talking to. Isn't always who we need to be talking to. So I love that. That's what positioning is all about. I've been having conversations with with a new, newer client, where we're also trying to work on positioning, and it's trying to figure out the ideal. And I keep talking to them about, like, Who do you ideally want to work with? And they're like, well, we can't work with them right now. Like, here you there's limitations, yada yada yada. But who do you want to work with right now? Ideally, like in a perfect world scenario, all the planets align, because that's how we need to find that sweet spot and position you in a really hyper-targeted way. And they push back on me really hard because they need revenue now, like I hear you, I we're going to do things to get you the revenue now, but in terms of long term brand building, we have to talk to the companies that you're going to work best with for the for the long run. And so yes to doing that work, yes to digging in. I must have drove my client. He's like, I feel like I've been saying this to you. Uh, over and over again. I'm like you are, but you're not answering my question, not answering it the way that I need you to answer it. So I'm going to keep asking it until I get there. And so doing this work, how do you navigate the people? I'm getting selfish here, people, sorry, not sorry. I'm sure we're all feeling this because everybody wants us to move quicker than the speed of light. So how are you navigating that, Beatrice and sitting in the upfront work? They just want the website. They want to be pretty, they want the logo. They want. They want the thing. And we're like, hold the phone, slow your roll. Got work to do. How are you helping your clients? take that minute, take that breath, and do the hard work with you up front. What

Beatrice Gutknecht 20:47

I actively promote is adjusting your brand as you go. It's all about those small pivots. So as we work through it together and have those consultations, it's like all right. So this over this conversation, we've come to X, Y, Z points. How can we implement that in your business? How can we implement that with your marketing team? How can we implement that elsewhere on your website? What are the things like? These are the things all right, cool. So let's get that done. So that way you're still moving forward. You're never on a standstill. It's not like those pretty rebrands where it's like, oh, we're gonna hold it for like, six months and we're gonna spend like, millions of dollars on this, like, new logo and rebrand, which just, you know, people remember, for all the five minutes, and then it's like, Okay, next. It's like, iterative. People shouldn't really notice, but then suddenly it's like, whoa. Like, you know, this brand is just, it's stuck in my head because of XYZ, like, and I've noticed these little things which it's connecting to me, same as with really good content, right? You remember it later on, because it's like, oh, you know, I felt something there or connected with me in that way. You're not going to remember all the different iterations beforehand, right? The same thing is like with Oatley, how they evolved over time.

Kerry Guard 22:19

That's true.

Beatrice Gutknecht 22:21

You don't remember their boring version. You don't remember the little like ad bits, or the things like how they've changed their packaging to become what they are now, and sure they're still going to keep on iterating, and that's what I recommend, so you're not losing out on that present moment. Duolingo

Kerry Guard 22:43

is another example where they sort of snuck up on me with their new, their Yeah, yeah. They're, they're very, there's, I think they're trying to speak to a younger audience, which hats off to them for keeping up with the times. It's not, it's not vibing with me, but at five, you know, my daughter loves, loves the the unicorn horse who looks over the shoulder, she loves, I'm here for it. But it didn't. I didn't, to your point, what I love that you're saying is it didn't happen overnight. It wasn't like all of a sudden, this huge rebrand of all these new icons and images. It was like this slow, and then all of a sudden, I was like, why is the owl popping out of a butterfly cocoon? What is happening? And I remember it.

Beatrice Gutknecht 23:32

I remember correctly, or even their app, the little face on the app, which is like, completely and utterly ugly. Yeah, there's a reason behind that. It's memorable.

Kerry Guard 23:41

It is memorable and I want it gone, so I will go into the app to do my daily lessons so that it can stop staring at me and give me the evil eye and be on fire

Beatrice Gutknecht 23:54

Exactly like it's become so well known with the threats to your life, all of our lives, like it's in their com, like it's in the way that they comment, it's in their advertising, like they've made it so immersive in the entire experience. So basically, you're building out a world now, the way that I see things moving forward, like in the next few years, is things really becoming like brands really becoming like worlds. So they're building up worlds. That's why, you know, we really love like Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings or Bridgerton. It's all escapism, right? And that can be borrowed from in brands, right? Because the moment that you start building out a whole structure, a whole environment, is the moment they can, like kind of disconnect from their day-to-day. So when you're doing Duolingo, you kind of disconnect. Is, or, you know, in their stratosphere, you go on to their Instagram, you're automatically like, your head is like, Okay, where is this little snide remark or doiling or like, threatening ad? You're in a different spot. And that's what we crave. We're so busy all the time trying to keep ourselves like, what is that next thing that those things are attractive as hell.

Kerry Guard 25:29

Let's, let's transition this to a B to B conversation, because I love what you're saying, and I want to make sure that it translates for those who are listening, who are like, Ah, this doesn't painted me, because I'm B to B. You're talking about B to C. But I think it can, we can create that, that world sort of building vision when, especially in SAS, right, when people have to log into an app, right? So when you're talking about brand Beatrice and what for what you're saying right now, you know, we tend to sort of say, like brand awareness and brand building, and it feels all very like out there and top of funnel, but where we've come into, I think, is important, is it's actually all throughout, including into the product.

Beatrice Gutknecht 26:12

And that all leans into the positioning. And from the positioning and the differentiation you're building out a clear and distinct voice. So the way to, it doesn't matter B to B, B to C, but you're going to, you're going to have a stronger brand as A, B to B, if you build out a clear voice, and that is associating certain elements. Say, for example, we're going to, I'm gonna lean into pop culture, because that's, that's my thing. But like, say, for example, you take two pop culture characters that you really resonate with. I don't care if it's a TV show or it's a book or it's a movie, right? And you're like, Okay, what about them? What are the attributes that resonate? And those are the things that you can start translating into, the way that you know you do your content as a business, the way that you're doing the DMS, the way that your website is written out right using those little phrases, you're not losing anything of like, what you're selling. You still want to have that clarity of like, Hey, this is what we do. But there is that voice that very distinct voices associated to your business, and that makes it sticky in mind. And I think AI is a great tool for ideation that you can poke on it to like, you know, I've just had this idea, how can we, like, further elaborate it? If there, why not use it? But I don't think that everything should come from Ai, because those distinct voices come from us. You know, it's that human element. It's human side that wins out.

Kerry Guard 28:06

I had this conversation with another one of my clients when I was being brought on, and I was talking about positioning and messaging and how it's going to bring on a technical expert who can take very complex things and boil them down to simplicity with tone and personality, because I love the way this client speaks in the personality that he brings. I just want to bring that through. It's brilliant. I love it. And he was like, well, AI is really great. Chat. GPT can do wonders. I was like, You have to feed it the right thing first, you have to give it to get and so we have to do the upfront work first of positioning and messaging and voice to dial that in. And then we can build a GPT and all the things around it to help us do our job faster. But we have to do the upfront work with humans first.

Beatrice Gutknecht 29:01

So exactly and associating, right? So, it's the same thing as HubSpot therapy to be, right? But they've become very human. You can go to their socials and you're like, I'm I can relate with them. There's a human behind here. And regardless of what the business is, that is what you want it to feel like, as if you're talking to a certain character, a certain person, and that is a consistent one. You don't want like it to be all over the place with different voices. You're like, whoa, that's true.

Kerry Guard 29:35

Yep, yep. In terms of voice, let's talk about this for a second, because I feel like, to your point earlier, the internet's kind of become very samey in terms of what people are saying and how they're saying it. You mentioned a few aspects, like pop culture and sayings when you're trying to build a brand voice for other companies. That isn't you like I I feel like I have a certain voice that I've sort of encompassed, and we've and I have to write my own content. I can chat GB to it to an extent, but I ended up always it just gets me off of the blank space by end up rewriting it. But I want to make sure that any clients I have it's not my voice, it's theirs. So, how are you and you also have a very distinct personality too. So how, how do you help clients find their voice and then bring that through and sustain it for the brand questions, a few aspects like pop culture and sayings, when you're trying to build a brand voice for other companies that isn't you like I, I feel like I have a certain voice that I've sort of encompassed, and we've and I have to write my own content. I can chat GB to it to an extent, but I ended up always it just gets me off of the blank space. But I end up rewriting it, but I want to make sure that any clients I have, it's not my voice, it's theirs. So how are you and you also have a very distinct personality too. So how? How do you help clients find their voice and then bring that through and sustain it for the brand?

Beatrice Gutknecht 31:21

Well, it should always come from them, right? It's not like where we are at any point in the conversation. It shouldn't be me or anyone else jumping in or suggesting for them. It's always like the way I approach things. It's very question-oriented. It's probing. It's getting those ideas and the thoughts and the voice from them, right, like I will try to avoid, at any cost, the way that I perceive to filter in there. So it that's why, you know, and it's all a big part comes from the business society, the founder or co-founder, etc. It's like, what do you feel this represents? And it is probing and calling on those little strings to go deeper, to go past those like, you know, the first answer is, like the first response to anything is it never usually deep enough. So it's like, how can we get deeper? How can we get to that real essence of why, what, why this was built, or what, what you want to do with this, or say, for example, with the team, you know, for me, I really promote getting the team involved in the whole process. And it's like, Hey, go and ask them, you know, what did they feel like the business stands for, even if it's like putting it, you know, into a piece of paper and then putting it into a bucket, right and collecting those. But when you understand that, or when you go through the comments that are associated to the business, so say, for example, there's a whole bunch of reviews. Go through those reviews, what are the ones that they've used to describe the business, then it's no longer you in that in that voice, in that picture, it's, it's that world you're, you're building that all out.

Kerry Guard 33:33

I love the aspect of getting the team involved. Farming ideas takes great talent. True story, telling, it takes great talent and energy to sit with folks and ask the right questions. It is a gift. Thank you, podcasting, for helping me hone mine. Couldn't agree more. And so in terms of it sounds like I love what you're saying, Beatrice, in terms of doing the work, of sitting down with people and understanding what they're passionate about as it relates to the company, and then bringing that forward. It sounds like you're building not just a single voice from the founder, but a unified one.

Beatrice Gutknecht 34:13

Then exactly so at the end of the day, what you build that your your strategy, that that one message of what you stand for, what you're going to stand for, what you're going to how you're positioned, that needs to be taken on by the whole team right for it to actually work in the long run, because they're the ones that are directly dealing with customers at different levels, be it from the customer service side, from the sales side, even from the marketing in the marketing material, right? Everybody needs to have that consistent voice and opinion about it, and it is about bringing them in. Say, for example, you build out one specific value, and it's like, okay. Okay, guys, you know, what do you think about this specific value? How do you see that coming out in the way that you work with people? So it's not, it's no longer one message, copy, paste, copy, paste, copy, paste. Which people are not going to remember. They're going to resent they're buying it, so they're getting the ownership of that idea. So then they're no longer external from you. The team is all together, one army moving forward.

Kerry Guard 35:35

Consistent messaging is critical to the success of this, and what better way to ensure we're all saying the same thing by actually embodying what everybody is saying? How do you bridge this to the customer? Right? So one of the things we talk about from a branding perspective and messaging perspective is it's not about you as the brand, right? It's about how you ultimately help your customer. So how do you create that bridge of embodying your own voice, but in a way that's going to connect to the other side and not alienate it? Potentially,

Beatrice Gutknecht 36:14

I see it as a balance of a lot of the time, your customer doesn't necessarily know what it once, right? But at the same time, there's always going to be somebody that wants something, and it is just a matter of testing it out. It's like, okay, so this is the information that we've received those thus far, right? So perhaps your customer service have received XYZ comments about a certain product, you know, they they like this element, or they don't like this element. And it's like pivoting based on that information that you you, you compiling a bunch of information. And it's also why I recommend businesses not to approach like your your brand strategy until you know later on, once you have had that information come in and once you have those experiences, because it makes it very clear in terms of what kind of direction you want to be moving forward and how people are responding to that, and then building going Back to what we were talking about before. Right as we're adapting as we go, we're also getting the the responses are people, like, pissed about it. Do we need to, like, completely adapt? Um, or, you know, do is this working? Do we need to double down in this?

Kerry Guard 37:42

I think that's, I love the iterative learning cycle. So good. Let's talk about timing then. So when do you start building? I mean, you're going to tell me, like, you know, as soon as your thing. But like, ideally, when would you or brings? When would you bring somebody into this process of starting to build that brand in that one voice? I know it's as soon as humanly possible, but it do you need to wait till you have a project ready to go to market? Can you do it? Should you do it sooner? And why? Like, I feel like people generally, here's how I see things going and and we can talk about why you should or shouldn't do this, but here's sort of by worry with what's happening out there for founders in the atmosphere. They build the thing, they have the thing, their board and investors are telling them that now they need to go market the thing, and the first thing they do is call up an agency to go start running ads, and then they get burned a cold bunch, and then they come back, and then they figure out that they need a marketing leader, and they start building that in. That's what I'm seeing happen. I know you just took your head, so I know you're in agree with me of like, please don't do that. I'm an advertising agency, and I'm telling you, please, do not do that. How so, where does bra, where does this process? I know it's iterative, and you should probably start as humanly possible, but like realistically, when do you bring this expert in, and when do you start this process? That makes sense in relation to where, how startups sort of function.

Beatrice Gutknecht 39:24

I certainly wouldn't be the whole product and then only then have a go to market, right? That is a very dangerous game, but I would first encourage the experiences, right? Have people work with your service or your product, have those experiences built up, understand and make those initial pivots, because there will be pivots. I. Promise, I promise you that make those pivots first, because if you try to do anything related to like your brand or your marketing right at the beginning six months down the line, you're going to want to change it again. And that's going to be a costly affair, which is unnecessary, right? The first thing is, like, you want to just get those experiences, get the pivots, get the fit. And then you can start like, okay, hey, let's look at the brand. Let's start building up. Like, okay, what is the direction that we want to move in based on all this information that we built thus far, like live information, you're, you're getting customers, and like you're, you're working with them, you're getting money. Then adapt.

Kerry Guard 40:50

I love the feedback aspect of it. I always tell my team that I can't make decisions in the dark, but man, can I iterate and adapt when I have data? So I love that. So just to be clear, you have a product, you have customers, whether it's in beta or out in the world, and people are coming in naturally. You're getting feedback from the customers on what's working, what's not. You're starting to adapt, and you're starting to get momentum naturally. And at that point, it's time to bring somebody into Hone and iterate and grow exactly have that momentum.

Beatrice Gutknecht 41:22

And you know, from the experiences that I've had, this is usually, you know, after three or four years, because it does take time, you know, at the beginning where you're you're iterating, you're changing things hell like you know, if it does come in quicker, great, but just be wary that there are going to be a lot of changes right at the beginning.

Kerry Guard 41:49

It takes years.

Beatrice Gutknecht 41:53

Oh, my God. Like any of us that have been like doing this, we just know that there's like, right at the beginning, this is probably not gonna be exactly the same, like even Rue Right. Like, I know for a fact that she's probably going to just slightly develop more like, same as how you look at the logos, like Ralph, Ralph, Ralph Lauren. My God, Ralph Lauren. Like their logo has, like, iterated. There's been changes, but the core of it has maintained the Polo, and that's, that's the thing. Like, I know that she might change, but like, that core is going to be the same kangaroo.

Kerry Guard 42:34

Yeah, I love it. Same with us. We have that mkg, and that's evolved over the years, but the core of those double lines are so definitive to our brand, both in optimizing. So mkg stands for Mike KRAS, who's my business partner, and Kerry Guard, and we merged the K's so we optimized, because that's what we do, and the double lines all about measurement, right? So in terms of the space between so I but that's always been the logo. It's just evolved over the years to get cleaner and fresher and more well defined, but the core is hasn't changed. We've iterated. Probably didn't even know, probably didn't even know, folks, it used to be orange, and that's why rebrands are complete bullshit.

Beatrice Gutknecht 43:19

You want that core to stay the same. Do you like, imagine you have a rebrand now. You're like, oh, you know, I want to completely change the logo. It's like, how are people going to recognize you? What about the trust? What about the value of the business? Because that'll go as well, because people associated you to that certain thing.

Kerry Guard 43:47

So, so true. We talked about elements of a RE, of the refresh, not a rebrand, from positioning voice, we've dabbled with messaging in terms of iterating to build that bridge to your customer. Is there anything else from like when you start to build out the messaging regarding the refresh? How? How does that come into play? And what should people be aware of when they start thinking about how they position their brand and how they start talking about it with customers, and how the customer is today. How do we need to meet them where they are from a messaging standpoint in a refresh?

Beatrice Gutknecht 44:32

So the biggest thing that I've noticed that the brands that I've worked with and people that I've spoken to is how much subjective wording comes into play. So for example, like authentic or impact. So you know, if we think about impacts right, impact could be Hiroshi. Dima or world peace, they're both impact, right? So a lot of the time it is very much clearing out any of that language. So pretty little things like the clothing brand that they just rebranded and put, like the fresh coat of paint on the peeling paint, they put in a lot of these kind of words, like legacy. And when you're reading it, it's like, I'm not your employee. I'm not forced to read this. I am your customer. So if the moment I lose interest, I'm not there anymore, right? So you need to be connecting into like the no one, be like, okay, talking to them using a their language. And I know that this is spoken about a lot, using their language, and then also using your your tone, make make up a little word bank of words associated specifically to your brand. And it's like, colloquialisms, like, say, for example, from me, you know, I say hex, yeah, a lot. Or I say, oh, that's the bad ass or bad ass. Or, like, you know, son of an Arabian goat. That is, like, a, it's a me thing, right? Like, right, as soon as people see that, even the kangaroo that I've received so many DMS where like, oh, you know, I just saw this kangaroo.

Kerry Guard 46:33

Like, yes.

Beatrice Gutknecht 46:36

If you build those associations in the wording in the visuals, you build that clear connection to your brand, avoid any words that could mean something different to somebody else,wishy washy.

Kerry Guard 46:50

Wishy washy, washy, or like trying to go green for the sake of going green.

Beatrice Gutknecht 46:54

You understand who your audience is, and just talk a language like, same as how we're talking now. We're not using any special like, you know, ROI, RPG, yeah, you know, it's funny.

Kerry Guard 47:10

The only time I used a marketing acronym was actually when I was intro and pravato, right? And I had some language around why to use them in a pitch sort of way, right? So, yes, I could even soften that to not do that. Dear goodness. I just, I just got off the call with a client who was like, I think we figured out a tagline, innovative strategies. And I was like, no, no, I was like, I love the second part. The second part is exactly what you do and who you do it for. But we gotta drop the we we gotta drop any innovative strategies that means nothing.

Beatrice Gutknecht 47:57

If somebody says that's like to me, I'll be like, Okay, what do you mean? What does What do these words mean?

Kerry Guard 48:04

I started down that rabbit hole and it just occurred to us that we didn't even need it.

Beatrice Gutknecht 48:10

Yeah, that's so like, that's how you come to it, without being like, Well, no, you're wrong. You suck, because a lot of the time people like they you know, you want to hold on to the idea so damn hard.

Kerry Guard 48:23

I was like, you're proud of it, yeah, yeah. And you're super proud of it. And so yeah, it's it is it is our job to ask those questions and to not cut, you know, just tell them what needs to happen and to be along for the journey, for sure. I Elijah, I love your little Toodles. You could like, hear it like, hear you say it. It's the best when you sign off on emails that way. And Terry, yes, chat. GPT, the only thing that made them their launch any good was the fact that they were net new tech that we were all excited about, not because they had this brilliant brand or name, no place, right time, right Yes, that's really what they just happen to be in the right time at the right place. Let's close out here. Beatrice, you we talked about, you know, positioning, voice. We just, we just moved on to messaging, which is, you got to be crystal clear on what you do and who you do it for, find that bring your voice into it. Of what those colloquialisms, what that, what some of those little keywords that people can associate the the tone and voice your brand, bring this home for me from a messaging standpoint. How do you measure that? This is working. What metrics do you use, from a brand perspective, to say, yes, we're on to something, or, Dear God, we got a pivot like yesterday.

Beatrice Gutknecht 49:55

It is a lot of the time that this feedback, you know, the level. Of like, referrals, the level of like, how many times that your your tag, that your message like mentioned? Because the point is, like, you need to know how sticky your brand is. Like, this messaging, this visuals. It can't just be them, one by themselves. Like, I'm never just going to focus Hey, just your messaging. So overall, it's like, okay, how, how sticky is the brand? Like, are people talking about, are you getting referrals? Are people like messaging like, Okay, say, for example, at any given time you know you're you're like, Okay, how did, how did you find out about us. Like, what was, what was it about us that drew you to us? And it's what they mentioned there that you need to lean into. And I know it's overspoken, and there's a lot of hate on that whole question. Of, like, you know, somebody connects on LinkedIn and it's like, oh, you know what, what, what drew you to connect? I disagree. I think it's a fantastic way to understand what's working and what you double down on, what you take off, and how I've iterated as well.

Kerry Guard 51:15

I just posted on LinkedIn a few hours ago, and I've been having multiple conversations where this has been coming up around on your contact form, or demo request or whatever that final marketing thing is, before it goes to sales, there's that field of, how did you hear about us? And it is not the first time. I've been hearing about this little field constantly now for, like, the last month, and how much information people have gotten around? Yes, they get, like, gobbledy gook and and online, I saw somebody post that, you know, they put that form in, and people said that they heard about them online. Gee, thanks. But the real interesting ones are the people who are talking about how they used chatgpt and what their prompts were, and the qualitative data that they're getting from that is eye opening and imperative. So I love what you're saying. I'm hearing it again around that qualitative feedback and how key that is, and that is one way to get it to include that forum referrals. I love that you're just asking people when they connect with you, like, what made you connect with me? I think that's yes.

Beatrice Gutknecht 52:38

What a great way to start the conversation, and you don't even need to do it as boring as what made you connect with me, like you can, like you kind of can make fun of it, of like, hey, you know this, we're both doing the same thing, right? Like, especially on LinkedIn, for example, like we're a lot of us are in business, or like we're working. It's like, well, you know, I'm like, start a curiosity. Have fun with it. It's like we only get to do this first thing once.

Kerry Guard 53:05

I think that answers your question, Terry, as to why consumer marketing, why B to B marketing has lagged consumer marketing ads, because we've been really boring and straight to the point and feeling like we can't have personality. And I think what you've been saying, Beatrice, is, no, please find your voice, find your brand and and lean into into that personality, of what that brand should embody, and stop being boring. And I think we'll catch up with consumer faster that way, for sure, exactly,or hey, why?

Beatrice Gutknecht 53:38

Why compare like, let's try to do let's outpace them.

Kerry Guard 53:47

Let's do this. Let's do it. Let's do it. Beatrice, I could talk to you forever. We're just about out time. Where can people find you if they want to learn more about you and your and building brands.

Beatrice Gutknecht 54:01

So three things you can hit me up on LinkedIn, via trust, good connect or badass free by B. There is the badass mob newsletter, which is direct to inbox every Friday with one strategy or tactic and then how to implement in your different departments, customer service, sales, marketing, etc, and the art of branding podcasts, which we're about to go into Season Three very soon. So it's loading like visualize a little loading screen.

Kerry Guard 54:37

That's amazing. Congrats. Starting a podcast is so hard way to stick with it. Season Three. Rock on. Go check it out, folks. Beatrice, before we go, before we go. You're more than a marketer. You've had this wonderful journey of your career, but what outside of work is currently bringing you joy. Ooh.

Beatrice Gutknecht 55:00

The warm weather coming in that's so bad, mister. It's a small little thing, but honestly, it changes everything,

Kerry Guard 55:14

everything. Yeah, what's it changing for you?

Beatrice Gutknecht 55:19

My interest in actually getting outside, and surprisingly, my energy in the gym is really weird, right? Like, yeah, so, you know, I go first thing in the morning. So, like, if it's super dark and it's super cold, you're like, go and do what you need to do. You don't necessarily want to do it or even get out of bed. So, like, as it gets warm, it just gets easier to get out of bed and just do it.

Kerry Guard 55:53

Yes, I'm here for it. I'm warming up too. It's I'm thawing out. So good, so good. Beatrice, I appreciate you, and if you like this episode, please like, subscribe and share. This episode was brought to you by Improvado as well as MKG Marketing. MKG is a digital marketing agency helping complex brands like those in cyber get found via SEO and digital ads. Episodes hosted by me, Kerry Guard, CEO and co-founder of MKG Marketing, see y'all next time I love to show it you.