Authentic Marketing-Sammi Norman on Building Genuine Brand Connections

Overview:

Sammi Norman joins Kerry Guard to explore the evolving world of influencer marketing and the shift towards authenticity in brand messaging. They discuss how businesses can build trust, leverage influencers effectively, and move beyond traditional marketing tactics. Sammi shares her insights on personal branding, social proof, and why human connection is key to marketing success.

Transcript:

Sammi Norman 0:00

If influencer marketing is not at its own position, its own role in your company, you are overworking whoever has to deal with whatever it is they do and influencer marketing, it is a full-time job, if done correctly, to be an influencer director.

Kerry Guard 0:22

I that. Let's go. Let's go. If you're here for it like I am, like Sammi is, please join us in the comments. We are here for you. I love your sidebars. Elijah is going to be hanging out with you in the comments, and he's going to also be making sure that we see your questions so we can take them as they roll in. I will do my best to make sure we get to all of them, but if we don't have no fear, we will come back to you asynchronously at the end and make sure that we follow up whether you are commenting live or whether you're commenting and watching the recording. We got you. We got you. I'm so excited for this show. A little bit about Sammi before we jump in. Sammi is a passionate Sammi is passionate about the creativity and strategic thinking to deliver campaigns and events that not only exceed goals, but create lasting impact in brand communities. If you want to connect with Sammi, we will cover that at the end. Don't you worry. But the beautiful thing about this conversation, I'm looking forward to is that Sammi is actually on the B to C side, and we're going to bring her experience and expertise of how to be human onto the B to B side, and it's going to be wonderful. So Sammi, welcome to the show. Hi. Thank you so much for having me so excited to have you. That was a little tiny blurb that gave nothing of what your journey has been, which is what we really care about. So Sammi, tell us, what do you do now, and how did you get there right now.

Sammi Norman 1:47

I am a director of marketing for a fitness space, kind of a like a mom-and-pop gym right now. And then. I do a lot of freelance on the side, just delivering marketing strategies and executing on the ones that sound fun to me, because not all of them are fun, and I have have the freedom to kind of pick and choose doing freelance which ones I want to execute on. But I actually come from fitness. I was a trainer, fitness, nutrition, program design, all of that for about 10 years, and there was a lot of overlap there. But I guess long story short is I was in online coaching, trying to be an online social media influencer, when that didn't quite exist yet people looked at you like you were really dumb at that time. Is that that's where I started. So to me, all of the knowledge and all the experience and education that I have in marketing came in by accident, just purely because I needed it to survive as a coach. So I started learning digital marketing and how to better present myself, and taking some courses and some education and some things on the side. And from there, I just grew from me building my brand to helping other coaches build their brands, to other gyms, building their brands and small businesses building their brands, until it kind of came to a point where I just did not want to coach anymore, so I switched to marketing full time, and I, again, am very lucky to be able to stay in the fitness and health space because I choose to, and that's That's what I know. It's what I'm good at.

Kerry Guard 3:42

It's nice that you get you know. So when I started out in advertising, I did paid media planning from the very beginning, and I worked on Verizon, and then I worked on yo play. And I was like, two brands that I are fine, like I used Verizon at the time, and they were good. I loved their commercials. Of, could you hear me now? You know, dating myself and the deal play, I kind of had, like, a love-hate relationship with because it was really fun to do some of the more creative campaigns, but, but I felt like I was selling sugar to babies, and that really, I sort of was on the struggle bus with that pretty hard. So to be able to work on brands you actually care about is unusual, and that's one of the reasons why I love the cybersecurity space, because so many of those marketers deeply care about the mission of what cyber means. And so hats off to you for finding what's it called your icky guy where, like, you have a thing you're super passionate about, for something people actually need, and you get to make money. It's like the dream. It's the dream so well done to you on that before we get into our conversation, which I have a lot of questions that. Gonna about your journey that will help feed that. But before we get there, what's a challenge you're currently having? What's feeling hard and in your way?

Sammi Norman 5:12

It's a good question. I feel like there's always a little bit of resistance for me, only because, for those of you that don't know, I live in Wyoming right now, and there's not a lot of need for fitness in Wyoming. You think of like you watch Yellowstone and it's cowboys and it's ranchers. That's real life, not so much like, like the Western Sons of Anarchy type of thing. That's not so much what it is, but it's a lot of ranchers, and it's a lot of, you know, working man fitness so to say, you know, and I've been trying to transition and move somewhere that is more in line with what I would like to do, like I would love to be in Texas. So that's hard for me, because I love to be around people, and I've worked remote for the last 10 years, but like I was telling Elijah before we got started, I've recently started doing some in-house stuff, you know, here in town, and I forgot how much I missed being around people on a day to day basis, yeah, so for me, like I do, I have a great position, and I still get to do freelance right now, and I have these really great people around me, but there's always that little bit of resistance that, you know, I would like to be somewhere warmer. I would like to be in Texas. So I am, I'm grateful, and I'm happy here, and I love what I do, but there's always that little bit of a push like there could be something else.

Kerry Guard 6:50

It's always a question of, the grass is greener? Yeah, no. And I right now too. I feel like this has been a brutal winter, especially for people up north, and so I have to imagine dreaming of somewhere sunny and warm. Is I? You are not the only one. Sam, yeah, I'm feeling it. You feel it hard.

Sammi Norman 7:09

We got fake spring for a good week, and then I woke up this morning and there was snow outside, and it's like, you know what? I'm no, no, no. I need, I need the sunshine,please.

Kerry Guard 7:21

Yes, we've gotten very lucky this last week, the sun has been shining and it's been cold still, but at least the sun is out. And I'm like, I'll take it. Oh, it's not

Sammi Norman 7:30

ideal. It makes such a difference.

Kerry Guard 7:33

Really, does wonderful. Let's talk about why. You know, when we talked, you felt very strongly about this topic. And I'd love to sort of set the stage of why you feel like this isn't why we need to have this conversation. So what's happening in terms of your point of view the in how marketing is working out in the world, that it's sort of lost its soul a little bit, or maybe never had one? I don't know you, tell me what sort of, yeah, what are you seeing out

Sammi Norman 8:09

there? Well, like we talked about before, I think what really started it for me was, you know, if you go back to advertising in the 90s or the early 2000s, you know, it was supermodels, and it was, you know, you've got to be the best and you have to have this, and if you don't have this, and you're a loser, you know? So it kind of, it was very fake, I guess is the best way. You know, there's a lot of words for it, but short story, like, it felt very fake. You know, when you were chasing perfection all of the time. And I don't know if you've met any other humans, but that's not real. Like nobody, you know nobody can attain that and like nor should they want to. So what I've seen, and what I really enjoy, is that shift of brands and people that brands bring in to bring them back to life and show them more human side, you know, and it started with influencers and creators that just started to share their life, and they gained these massive followings because people want to see other people being relatable. And if you look at the data, and if you see the trends these influencers, when they started out like we're doing this for fun, and now they're making hundreds of 1000s or millions of dollars on these brand deals, because they have an audience that they built by being a human being and showing how relatable they are. So I think that shift in being more relatable, and I wish that I had saved it, because I saw somebody on LinkedIn do this the other day. I want to say it was mid squares. I'm almost positive it was mid squares. Had an incredible video of the people that they brought to it was a train. Show. I don't know if it was, I don't know I'd have to find the post. Whatever it was, go to their page. They did an incredible job creating this video of just people that work for the brand, that were being funny and they were entertaining, and just showing their personalities. And that's what people want to see, because when the when people think of brands, like I said, especially, you know, people in their 30s, when they think of advertising, they think of businesses that are just trying to get money. When you see people and you're entertained and they're talking about something, or, you know, they're mentioning a brand, or how they're using it, or how it works, that piques your curiosity, and then you want to go see what that brand is about, because you trust whoever you're watching, because it created some sort of connection in you by the entertainment. So to see that shift, I think there are some brands that are doing it just so well, and it makes me so happy to see it.

Kerry Guard 10:59

Influencer does seem to be up. And I don't want to say up and coming. It's been, it's been around for a long time, but I think with the with the rise of AI, and how the buyers are buying these days, where they don't want to click on anything, they don't want to give up their information, they want to do their own research and their own homework, and they want to hear from real people that having an influencer program as part of your marketing program is kind of necessary. Now it feels like, it feels like there's that shift happening, and I don't know that B to B marketers really figure out how to do that. It's I want to say I feel like everything's easier on the consumer side, but I could just be biased, because I haven't been in B to B so long, and then when I dip my toe in B to C, I'm like, wow, this is cycle. And change this thing today, and I'm seeing results tomorrow. Yes, please to that. But I feel like B to C has been on the influencer train for a long time, and now B to B is just catching up. So, considering this is where you sort of started your career as a marketer, can you share with us, like, what are some of the best practices that come with engage, you know, bringing influencers into your marketing program. Do you still? Is this something you are actively doing, even today with, you know, as yourself as a marketer, you bringing influencers in, and how are you doing that?

Sammi Norman 12:31

It's not something that I do on a day to day, but you know, like I said, it's when I deliver strategies. Influencers are 97% a part of that strategy for good reason, like you said, you know it's it's almost necessary now, because what it does is it creates that social proof that people want to see. And there's a million ways to create social proof, but one of the best ways is to have somebody talking about your product in a good way, on their own social and just tagging you or collaborating on the post, you know, and sometimes that gets a little bit tricky, because when people see like collaborations on the post again, it's, you know, in your brain, you're thinking they're being paid for this, and it creates that little bit of an Ick. But, you know, if you, if you do it well, like I said, some of these influencers do it so relatably So to me, it's just really dependent upon the size of their audience, you know. And some of that plays into budget, you know, and how much people are willing to be paid. But for me, it's just about finding the right fit. You know, it's almost like a job interview of what are they showcasing, how well are their socials doing? You know, are they what is their content like? And does that align with what I'm trying to do? And then from there again, I do a very deep dive. Maybe not everybody does it this way, but I do a very deep dive where I treat it almost like an interview, where I talk to the Creator, and I have those calls, you know, when we talk about their content and how, you know, whatever the product is or whatever the company is, can fit into that. So it's very much, you know, not just sign up and get a discount and share it with your friends. It's, to me, it's a deep dive, because I have seen it happen too many times, where it is too easy to become an influencer for a company and they're sharing things that do not align with the brand, and then it leaves a bad taste in people's mouth, because nobody's monitoring those things. You know?

Kerry Guard 14:40

Yeah, I imagine the authenticity is a fine line to walk in terms of what you're saying. So let's talk about audience size. How important you know, it's sort of like twofold, right? Either go after somebody with a really big audience, maybe you got to pay a little more upfront. Is that a better strategy than going after maybe a few influencers? Issues that have smaller audiences, what's but maybe you pay a little less what's sort of your experience of like audience size and where to put, where to put your resources. For

Sammi Norman 15:13

me, it always comes down to who the creators are. Again, you can you pay a lot depending on the goals of the campaign, the product itself, you know, and where you want to go with it, you can get a really big creator and see a lot of success. This is just like a personal thought some of those bigger creators, you know, and rightfully so, they've done really well for themselves. Um, they can be hard to work with. Put it that way. Um, but, you know, I have seen just as much success working with a handful of people that have 10,000 followers or less, because typically, those are the people that are more authentic. And not say that, you know, they don't care about what they post, but it's that they don't care of, you know, to be seen as authentic. They're they're showing up fully as themselves. So people relate to that, and therefore they get better engagement, and they have a higher level of trust, which, you know, bottom line, brands need to have the trust. If you want to make sales, if you want to build a following, if you want to have loyalty, you have to have the trust. So that plays into it, too. I'm a fan of having a handful of smaller creators. But again, that goes into having those deep dives and having those conversations, you know. And I've gone as far as to run, you know, a couple of like, like, social media crash courses, again, just to, you know, here's kind of a guideline to follow of, you know, it, answer this question, answer this question. Answer this question. Okay, now you can post, you know, type of thing, but personally, I, like a handful of smaller influencers, I just that's kind of my bread and butter.

Kerry Guard 17:04

I haven't done a lot of influencer programs, but I feel like my that's my intuition of it being easier to work with those folks and being more collaborative with them. How much leeway do you give? Or you very prescriptive, what's sort of your when you engage so like you've picked out your influencers now, how, many, how much guard rail do you give them? Is it very strict of do's and don'ts, or is it pretty much like, here's the goal of the campaign, you do you?

Sammi Norman 17:41

That's another really fine line because and a lot of it depends on the content that they're already posting. But again, that goes into picking the influencers. If I really like the way that they're delivering, whatever it is that they're delivering, you know, if they have a really great way of setting things up in their posts already, here's what the campaign is, take it and run with it, you know. And of course, there's typically approvals that happen before they actually post, but a lot of times it's, you know, I've picked you because I like your content. I like the way that you deliver it, and your audience trusts you doing this type of content. This is what I need you to do, take it away. But you know,

Kerry Guard 18:29

yeah, no, I love that. I do think it's a balance. What are some of the parameters you give influencers in those in a in a conversation or a brief i

Sammi Norman 18:43

Yeah, a lot of it, I mean, it's, it varies from conversation to conversation, you know, campaign to campaign, but a lot of it is, my biggest rule is staying authentic to what you're doing, because as soon as You switch something up. People can feel that, and people can see that, you know? And I, I had made those little hats, like I said in another podcast, which I will probably link in the comments on this one, just so you can listen to it too, because it's, it's very similar. I said, you know, people can tell when you're being an asshole, so don't be an asshole. That's like, if I had anything written on my gravestone, that's probably what it would be, you know, people can tell when you switch up, and people can tell when you're being inauthentic. So my biggest thing is, like, I don't want you to sound like a robot. I don't want you to change everything that you're doing, I don't want you, you know, I curse all the time. Like, if you're a creator that curses, like, that's going to happen naturally. So if you show up and you're talking about this brand, you know, and if the brand is again, if the brand is not okay with any cursing, that's a separate conversation and a separate creator. However. And again, it all comes back to finding the the right people for each brand. So you know, if it's a brand that is very clean cut and does not enjoy cursing, I am not picking a creator that curses, because as soon as they post a video, their audience is going to know that it's off and it's not going to feel right and it's not going to do any good. So people are going to be seeing the video, and it's going to get engagement, because people are commenting about how off the Creator sounds, but it is negative. We're getting negative views on that because you can tell how inauthentic it feels. So my biggest rule in every scenario is authenticity, whether that is being authentic to the brand in finding the right creators, or authenticity in the creators about posting for the campaign.

Kerry Guard 20:54

Yeah, I imagine it's this. It kind of is dating in the sense of finding the influencer that's going to elevate the brand identity in a way that works really well together, right? So I Duolingo keeps coming to mind for me because their marketing is just so, I mean, it's interesting because it's it's so memorable and so good. But also like to a very they're trying to play into that younger, alpha audience now, right? And so like, the creative is not anything that I gel with, and almost makes you cringe a little bit when you're seeing like duo as this unicorn thing, I don't know, but it's memorable, and that it's they're clearly talking to the right audience. So trying to find the right influencer who's going to, you know, create that color and that vibrancy and lean into that makes a ton of sense, right? And so I love what you're saying, of like, coming back to dating, right? You gotta find the people who are going to already emulate your brand so you don't have to give necessary guidelines. All you need is goals and messaging and let them go run if you have to build guardrails, I feel like what you're saying Sammi is, like, if you haven't built a lot of guardrails, this is not the right person, exactly.

Sammi Norman 22:24

Yeah, which, like, just as a little as a side note, if influencer marketing is not at its own position, its own role in your company, you are overworking whoever has to deal with whatever it is they do, and influencer marketing, it is a full time job, if done correctly, to be an influencer director, to manage those influencers and those collaborations and partnerships, if done correctly, is a full time plus job by itself. So whoever is doing both is overworked and underpaid. I promise you,

Kerry Guard 23:05

I thought I'm I'm imagining it's probably the social media soul who is probably trying to do both.

Unknown Speaker 23:12

It is, yep,

Kerry Guard 23:15

yeah, okay, well, tell me more about, like, the full timeness of it. So you know, because if you're a brand thinking about how to break into the influencer side of things, now you're being told to hire a person that probably feels a bit big. So help me understand what the roles and responsibilities are and sort of the interactions that they need to do on a regular basis to be a farm job.

Sammi Norman 23:38

I'm working hand in hand with marketing every single day, non stop, you are working together because you have to understand what the campaigns are, what the goals are, and what's coming next. And I think that's one part that really gets missed a lot of the times, you know, as marketing creates these campaigns, you know, and they have a timeline, but then, like, whoever's upstairs, or whatever sales is, or whatever discount they're offering does not get back to marketing. So now there's no, like, there's if there's no communication, nothing is being done properly, which I could do a whole nother podcast on, believe me. So as long as marketing is on the correct page with everyone else in the in the brand, in the company, right, your influencer leader is working hand in hand with marketing, and again, doing those deep dives is what is this campaign? What are the goals are, and what are we looking at so that they can go out and search and find those creators that match that. And like you said, it's a dating game. So think of it as like, you're swiping Tinder for three weeks, and you are like, hand picking five to 10 people out of those three weeks and having those conversations. Conversations, and a lot of times they won't get back to you. So you're back to the drawing board of finding creators that you can have conversations with, and having calls and making sure that it's the right fit. So it's a lot of research, I guess is the best word of back and forth, getting really clear again, with marketing on on what it is that you're looking for, so that you can go out and look and have conversations, and then from there, build out. Again, it's, you know, getting with legal and creating the contracts like there's a lot of little nuances that go along with it. But again, the main job is just to create connections and find people that align with what you're doing.

Kerry Guard 25:47

I imagine it's a lot of managing,

Unknown Speaker 25:50

yes, right?

Kerry Guard 25:53

Yeah, that makes it. That makes a ton of sense. It. The one thing you mentioned, too is, from a campaign standpoint, can your influencer do you generally, like, once you find your people, you stick to them, or does it change campaign to campaign? What's sort of your experience in how you use influencers? You know, I know for me, like, when I when I'm as a fractional marketing leader, like I have my folks that I go to on a regular basis for certain things, right? Marketing, ops and social and podcasting and video and those sort of things. But for writing, I always switch up my writers because you just never know that what you're going to need for who so is influencer sort of similar in your you might have one or two go tos, but you're going to be switching it up often, or do you have your stable and you're good?

Sammi Norman 26:44

I think it's a little bit of both. You know, there's always creators that just do really well, but again, that's the point of of having, I guess, a trial run, Legion supplements does this really well, where they offer contracts for four months to be, you know, like a, they call it a sponsored, not a sponsored athlete, but a sponsored ambassador, where you have four months, where, you know, for every month, for those four months, you get free products, and you get to talk about it. If in those four months your sales do really well. You get to continue to have free products, and you sign another contract. If, however, you have those four months and your sales are not showing the numbers that they're hoping for, then it's, you know, you're welcome to be an ambassador, but you no longer get free products, you know. You get a discount code if you want to use it, you know. So there's always they, I love the way that they have that set up, because I think it works really well, you know. And it's in your mind that if I don't perform well, I don't get to continue with this. So, like, there's always that aspect. But you know, if it's, if we're just doing campaigns, if we're only finding people for campaigns, that's, you know, that's where you can kind of go. Okay, this one went really well. Our next campaign, I will let you know, you know, or if they don't do as well, thanks so much. Talk to you later, you know. But it's, again, it just comes back to how well they fit and kind of how well they performed based on what the campaign was.

Kerry Guard 28:25

Yeah, that makes sense. I wonder if there's an evergreen aspect to it too, if there's just to you, to your point, like, if there's a trial period of four months, and then things are just going well, that it just, it's just evergreen. It's just always on, and they get to continue, and they get to continue to feed the machine, so to speak, because I think it B to B, especially it's less campaign driven and more about that sort of always on presence that, you know, is keeps the brand top of mind.

Sammi Norman 28:54

Yeah, you know, and Legion, like I said, does that really well where they continue to send out, you know, any new marketing details, or any sales or discounts, they they do a really good job structuring that, but again, it's because they have somebody dedicated to affiliates and ambassadors and athletes. So they can continue to keep that high level of success, because they have somebody dedicated to that. Alright?

Kerry Guard 29:21

My last question about influencers, sorry to go. Have done. We weren't planning on going down this rabbit hole, folks, but influence has been very top of mind in terms of the marketing 3.0 playbook that is, is here to stay, and I'm glad that we went on this journey. My last question for you, Sammi, on this, and then we'll, we'll move on, is the measurement piece, because you mentioned it a couple times, of being able to actually measure revenue, is that all through affiliate links, that that generally happens? Or, how is it okay? I was just like, how is this being measured? Because social is a, sometimes a black hole of data that you can't actually

Sammi Norman 29:58

see. Yeah. So you can always go down that rabbit hole, rabbit hole, and request them to send screenshots of their engagement. But again, that's finicky to say the least. You know, not everybody's going to do it properly. Not everybody's going to do it in general. Not everybody understands why that's important. So there are a lot of different platforms where you can track all of your affiliates, and you can see how many clicks they got, where the clicks came from, how much they've generated. So yeah, it's just, it's incredible one, just to have the platform that has all of your affiliates on there, you know, and really good ones, you can track the different campaigns, and, like I said, track all the clicks. But yes, that's social. Is not the way to go if you're tracking your affiliates.

Kerry Guard 30:47

Yeah, I mean social in general is, they don't call it dark social for nothing, because it's so hard to really measure your impact of, you know, end to end results. So I do think, especially for SaaS products in the B space, if you have, you know, an easy to sign up for workflow that you can just, you know, drop affiliate links to your your to your influencers, and have people sign up that way. I think that's probably the easiest way to go about it. I love, yeah, I think that makes a ton of sense. I mean, okay, sorry, sorry, folks, hopefully that was helpful. I found it very exciting. That's why I went down that rabbit hole. But, you know, say when you came on, you were talking about how, you know, the 90s was very much about showcasing this ideal of what people considered perfection. I worked at D, K y as an intern, and it just drove me up a wall, the models they were picking. I was like, this is not, this is not a reflection of most people. So I get that you want this for the runway, but like, this is really disheartening. So I feel that to my core, having worked in fashion, of like the not like the inauthenticity of what marketing was, and still kind of is, to some extent this day. So influencer is a great example of how we've pivoted to the authenticity and giving marketers a way to really bring their brand to life in a really human element. Do you have any other ideas on or aspects that you've used that brings human back to the brand?

Sammi Norman 32:26

Yeah, I have yet to find the right way to describe it, or, I guess, the right words to describe it. But if you look at, say, dove, you know, and their every body campaign, I don't think that's the name that it is. But you know, you know dove

Kerry Guard 32:41

ideas, it's soap. It's

Sammi Norman 32:44

body wash. What they sell is self love and acceptance, and in turn, they make people feel good, and then you associate that with their soap. So they're not looking at it as you need to be clean because you smell funny. Here's some really great soap. It's, everybody is different, but everybody is worthy of love. And now we're really soft because we're using this soap. So why don't you try it? There's, you know, it's a way of thinking outside of the box, but it's still connected. You know, for example, like, you know, I have done a couple of campaigns for like physical therapy or mobility, where it's, you know, people getting to do the workouts, or getting to run with their kids, or getting to do whatever it is, you know, and at the very end, you talk about the brand, because it's not What this brand or what this product is specifically doing, it's what it's allowing you to do, or what it's allowing you to feel. And that, again, it's just, it's that another layer of connection and authenticity that people are feeling because they don't want to be sold a brand or a thing. People connect through emotions. So if you can give them that emotion through that 10 or 15 second attention span, you know, that's where, that's where you're really starting to see success. So to me, that

Kerry Guard 34:13

vulnerability,

Sammi Norman 34:14

yes, yeah, absolutely. So that's just another layer of you know. And again, it's easy to say, think outside the box. Yeah. You know, there's like, Well, okay, but, and that's so, I think, you know, if you're going to say, think outside the box, which is a great thing to do, I think a better way to say that is think about how this is affecting. How does this fit in? What are they doing to make their lives better by using this? That's how you think outside the box. Without just saying, you know, think of it another way. Okay, frame it, yeah. I'm like, sure got it. I'll get right

Kerry Guard 34:58

on that. Yeah. But one thing you said that I love the thing we can take from a B to B perspective that we don't always consider is, what does this allow people to do? Right? So this thing isn't going to nest, is going to probably solve a specific problem, but because that problem is solved, what do they actually get to do with that back, because they don't have to think about this problem anymore, or this thing's been solved, or whatever the case may be. So I love, I love that we talked about mobility and being able to get up and run with your children. I mean, that's, yeah, that you're not talking to your point. You're not talking about the thing that's making you you know, the exercises to so you can move your joints. I love to move my joints. Oh, why do I move them?

Sammi Norman 35:46

Well, you know. And there's always these things that you know. So I did that, that little series of, you know, psychological hacks. What it was, it's just things that people forget because they want to go shiny bells and whistles and you forget like, these are foundational things that people need to have for your brand to be successful. So it's like Simon Sinek has you know all what is, what's the what is the verbiage. All successful brands start with the why and not with the what, which is just another way of saying, like, what does your product do for people? Or what does your business do for people? Because that's what matters to them, not the product itself, but what can you do to help people? And that's what hooks them. And then you start with everything else.

Kerry Guard 36:37

My dogs are. I've talked we love furry friends. I have, yeah, no, I have very friend over there. Very friends are the best. I Yeah. I mean messaging, making messaging human again. And I love what you're talking about in such a positive way. And in B to B, we sometimes lead with fear and certainty and doubt. Call that FUD. I'm glad that we've, we're moving, and have continued to move away from that, which is just amazing. And so I just love some of these examples from a very human aspect of how to lead with the positivity of what we're giving people back in their day to day lives. And I just think that's really beautiful, and something we could really do a better job of messaging. I think when we talk about problem, solution and B to B, we tend to, to your point, talk about the solution being a very tactical thing. And I think we can move from the tactical now folks and really connect with people in a human way that makes them feel something else. Simon sneck talks a lot about, right? Is the is the hierarchy of needs, that they feel safe, they feel that they have a sense of belonging, and then they have a sense of purpose, right? And so how can we further those three things for them through our messaging? My coach calls it seen, heard, known and accepted. People need, need to feel seen, heard, known and accepted. And so if you could reflect back to them in your messaging those things in a very positive way of giving them something back in their life. I think we all, we all can win, for sure. So I love that. Anything else you can think of Sammi in terms of how we can breathe life back into our marketing in a way that makes it something we can people can more easily connect with and what to connect with in B to B, we know this too, especially in the cybersecurity space. People, CISOs practitioners, do not want to hear from us. They load that developers it. Folks have ad blockers on for a reason. It's so hard to create that connection because we've burned the bridge, and we got to build back now. And so these are wonderful ways, between influencers, between the messaging. What else you got for us? How else can we continue to build that trust and that connection through our marketing?

Sammi Norman 38:50

Use your people? I mean, your your people and your employees are some of the most underutilized, you know, especially in that kind of a space. You know, there's a lot of other industries where it's really easy to have other people give social proof. If you're talking, you know, tech or cyber security, there's a very small percentage, at least, that I have seen of random people walking the street that, you know, have that poll to talk about that kind of stuff. But again, you know you're get on LinkedIn and create connections as a human being, not that it's part of their job. But you know another person, um, pro pro bars. If you guys go on Instagram and look up fro pro bars, you will see their owner, Matt Williams, on every other post that they make, because he understands how important it is to create that connection. So him as the owner, him as you know, if you're looking at somebody, you know, the the higher ups. So to say, you know, even if you're not making Instagram videos, okay, do. You know, get on LinkedIn and have that personal brand. And I think again, you know that there's been a lot of talk about personal brands and how important they are, and it's because they're really important have that personal brand to pull people in, because once they're bought into who you are, and not some. Again, this is a caveat, don't pull people in on some fake assumptions. Pull people in being exactly who you are, and that will create that bridge to whatever else you're trying to get to.

Kerry Guard 40:32

It's like the best way to show your culture, isn't it? Of like what people are buying into by showing the people that you've hired and who work for you, I do find it hard because not everybody wants to be that. They don't want they're they don't want to eventually be online. They don't want to be talking. But if you have a soul, some a wonderful human in your company who just has that magnetic pull to what you're talking about, Sammi and you can work with them in a really intentional way of highlighting the great work they're doing. I think that's, yeah, it's, it's tough to do, but I think done. I had somebody else on my show a long time ago, Mary, where we go. Mary, oh my gosh, what a great episode. That was so long ago, but she was, she did this for Microsoft, where she went. She had little mini interviews throughout the company, and she just told these mini stories from and so she wasn't asking them to go online. She was doing it for them, but it was just this really beautiful way of highlighting the employees inside the company too. So I think there's lots of different ways to go about it.

Sammi Norman 41:38

Sorry, just worst case scenario, hire yourself a really scrappy social media manager that, like you said, will go around and just ask questions, and, you know, those little get a tiny mic and have them hold the tiny mic and ask them questions, or have them share a little snippet, or, like, you know, like top of mind, ask them to, you know, explain something that doesn't make sense to most people, like, if you ask me to explain anything tech, nope, I have no idea how it works. I don't know why it works. I know that I can use it well enough, but, you know, get them to to answer those questions that people have, you know, just to get somebody really scrappy that is not afraid to be online, somebody really young, accordingly. Caveat, pay them accordingly. However, find somebody really scrappy that loves to be online and loves to have those conversations and get them in there with your people to like you said, have interviews, have those little little videos, you know, make those little snippets, and that brings people in.

Kerry Guard 42:40

Curiosity goes a long way, folks. Yeah, it really does. Oh my gosh, Tammy, I could talk to you forever. I'm sure you got more tips and tricks up your sleeve. If people, what you know, give us one last one, one last one before we go.

Sammi Norman 42:53

Oh, now that I'm on the spot in blank. Um, okay,

Kerry Guard 42:57

that's okay too. We can we you'll have people follow up with you, but

Sammi Norman 43:01

Okay, that's fair. Send me a message. I'm sure something will come back.

Kerry Guard 43:05

Influencers, messaging and personal branding, all great, wonderful ways to bring humanity back into your brand. I love it. I'm so grateful. Sammi, thank you so much. Where can people find you as they have more questions about these things.

Sammi Norman 43:20

I am on LinkedIn, just Sammi Norman, S A M, M, I Norman. I'm also on Instagram. I talk a lot more fitness on Instagram, if you're into that kind of thing, Sammi Norman, fit, same thing. S, A M, M, I Norman, f, i, t, that's where I'm at. Awesome.

Kerry Guard 43:39

We'll go follow her folks. I sure will be before we go Sammi, something that I love to ask at the end of all my shows is, you know, outside of work, you are more than a marketer. What's something that's currently bringing you joy?

Sammi Norman 43:57

New Beginnings, I think is the best way to put that, I've had a lot of changes, you know, and change always comes with a little bit of nervousness and fear. But I think more than anything, I am excited, and I'm joyful about getting to start over and try different things. That

Kerry Guard 44:18

is exciting. I love New Beginnings. I move around a lot. My husband and I, this is the first time we've first time we've been stationary for more than three years, and we're all like, Where to next? Yeah, we got the itch. So I so appreciate that. Thank you so much. I'm so grateful for this conversation. If you like this episode, please like, subscribe and share. This episode is brought to you by MKG Marketing, the digital marketing agency that helps complex brands like cybersecurity get found via SEO and digital ads. This episode was hosted by me, Kerry Guard, CEO and co-founder of MKG Marketing, Music Mix and mastering done my lovely podcast sidekick, Elijah Drown, and if you'd like to be a guest, please join me. I'd love to have you on the show. You. Thank you again. Sammi, so good to see you. Thank you.