Zachary Walker
Zachary Walker is a seasoned social media leader who blends storytelling, influencer strategy, and cross-channel execution to drive measurable revenue impact for brands across B2B and B2C industries.
Overview:
Zachary Walker joins Kerry Guard to explore why brands are struggling to engage audiences even while screen time keeps climbing. They dig into the rise of short-form video, how B2B buyers use social differently than we assume, and why consistent execution on fewer channels beats scattered effort everywhere. The conversation also covers founder-led personal branding, testing small tweaks instead of overhauls, measuring what matters beyond vanity metrics, and using tools like Canva + AI to turn long-form ideas into snackable content without losing your voice.
Transcript:
Zachary Walker 0:00
No, and that's very strategic, you know, I think understanding, even, you know, as marketers, right, understanding your audience, and in that, in that case, your audience is your co founders, and so I think it's really smart thinking right, to be like, Hey, I know this individual does not want to be on camera doing a live session talking about, you know, business objectives. They'd rather be talking about the product, the latest updates to the app, or the platform. But to your point, what if we, instead of getting you in front of a camera, what if we write a piece of long-form content? What if we do a blog post, or what if we do a series of, you know, long-form written pieces of content, and sometimes for maybe those folks that are more camera shy, or maybe they just don't feel comfortable being in front of the camera, that's another opportunity. So I think that's really smart, Kerry, to understand your audience, and sometimes your audience is your internal one, and recognizing that we all have different strengths, you know, in opportunities for growth.
Kerry Guard 0:55
Absolutely.
Kerry Guard 1:11
Hello, I'm Kerry Guard, and welcome back to Tea Time with Tech Marketing Leaders at our new time, 11 am Eastern. Thank you all for taking your coffee break with me, and to my west coasters, Good morning. Hello. How's everyone doing? It is a glorious Thursday morning. I am very excited for today's conversation. Before I get there, a friendly reminder: if you're here with us today, say hello. We are monitoring the comments. This is the beauty. The beauty of being live is that we get to bring you all in, hear from you, and be part of the conversation while you have your own sidebar conversations, which I love reading after the show. So get on in here. Let's hash it out. And yeah, let's hear from you. Let's hear from you today. I have the love, lovely, lovely. Zachary Walker, thank you, Elizabeth Haig, for the amazing introduction to this human. I am stoked to dive into this conversation, a little bit about Zachary. He is an energetic marketer and public speaker with 10 years of diversified experience in B2C, B to B, nonprofit hospitality, and fintech spaces. He's an innovative professional committed to overseeing strategic and tactical execution for a brand, social media, and digital efforts. Zachary has a proven record of award-winning work, growing consumer reach, and engagement via efficient and effective social media advertising. I can't wait to break all that part. I have so many questions for you, Zachary, but before we get there, Hi. How's it going?
Kerry Guard 2:49
Yes, same, same. I know that intro that you wrote for me. Thank you for that. Thanks for doing my work. I appreciate you before we get into our conversation, though, I'd love to know your story. You know, these are all a bunch of, you know, jargony words of things that we do, but like, how'd you get there? So, where are you now, and how, what was your journey along the way?
Zachary Walker 3:13
It's an interesting journey. So, right now, I am in the advertising space at the motion agency. We are a midsize agency based here in Chicago. We got our roots traditionally in PR, and we actually just celebrated our 18th anniversary. So big time in the advertising space where I help lead all things social media and influencer marketing for a wide variety of clients at our agency. So, as you kind of mentioned, we're in healthcare, higher education, CPG, hospitality, you name it, events, doing a little bit of everything, helping develop and execute those social media content strategies. Now, how I got here was kind of an interesting story. So, back when I was in high school, getting ready for college. I thought I wanted to be a chef, and I was sold. I was like, I'm going to apply to culinary school. I'm going straight in after college or high school. And thankfully, my parents, being the smart parents they were, were like, it sounds like you're really passionate, but I think you should also spend some time working in the kitchen, see if you really want to do that full time, and then if that's the goal, you know, go to college, go to culinary school afterwards, figure that out. And thankfully, one of my best friends at the time, his dad, was a world-renowned chef, and he was kind enough to let me work in his kitchen for a summer. And so I did a lot, you know, think of the bear, think of that high intensity, you know, kitchen space, and I worked for about four months in the kitchen, realized that I did not want to work 13 plus hours a day in the kitchen, and so instead of that high intensity field, I switched to marketing, which is just that high intensity field. So I actually graduated from college, I started my professional career. Career at a Fintech startup here in Chicago, where I was the first hire outside of the four co-founders, and I did everything under the marketing umbrella. Actually started as a social media intern, grew my capabilities from blog, writing, email, web, you know, paid search, display, you name it, and it was there where I realized I really love marketing. I really love connecting with people, both online and in the real world. But I realized that I didn't really like marketing to banks as much. And what I realized was that the lifetime, that life cycle for sales, is just so long, and maybe it's me, and I am just jumping from thing to thing and project to project. But you know, it was interesting when I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do next. Everybody I talked to at the time was an entrepreneur, a founder, a startup professional, and everybody told me, whatever you do, do not get into the advertising world. You're not gonna like it. It's terrible, every single complaint you could think of. And thankfully, I didn't listen to it. I ended up in the advertising world, and I was really fortunate enough to join one of the bigger agencies in the space, and I got to work on a lot of social media campaigns for some really iconic brands, brands like Oscar Mayer, Kool-Aid. I was the voice of Kool-Aid on Twitter for a while. So if you were tweeting at Kool Aid back in the early 2000s, you probably would have gotten a message from me, and it really clicked when, after a campaign that we did for Oscar Mayer, CALL FOR THE LOVE OF hot dogs, I had the opportunity to speak at Chicago Social Media Week. And not only was that just like a watershed moment for me, where I was like, Okay, I know I'm in the right space, but I've also been able to do really impactful work. I was able to share the stage with the former Kraft Heinz CMO at the time, and people were coming up to me after the talk and asking questions about, like, how can they leverage social media for their brands? And so then I was like, Okay, this is it. I'm in the space now. I just need to continue to grow my skill set, learn from others, and hopefully teach others what I've learned. And over the past decade or so, I've really been fortunate to be on both the agency side, helping brands, and then also being on the brand side as well, helping really create and launch social media brands in a wide variety of industries. And you know, it's been a really fun journey. I've learned a lot. I've hopefully, I've been able to share some of those learnings, and it's one of the reasons why I'm excited to talk to you today.
Kerry Guard 7:18
As you were describing what you were doing, the first example that came to mind that's fresh and new that everybody's talking about is Duolingo, like, yes, right? Talk about just a great example of the work. You know, I was, I don't remember the Oscar, the hot dog, or the Kool Aid example, because I'm not really Twitter and I are. We never really. I really tried with Twitter. I really, like, I really put in some effort. I just, like, couldn't figure it out for me, but there are some wonderful brands on there that do some really cool things. And I know that Duolingo is one of those right now. That's just like, crushing it. So hats off to you for figuring out that beast. I can't wait to unpack that with you in a minute. I do want to know what you're doing now, for where you are, we're all human. Life is hard. So what is it for you? What challenge? What challenge are you currently facing? What's in your way?
Zachary Walker 8:11
Yeah, you know, I think the biggest challenges that my team is facing, I'm facing, and our clients are facing, right now, is how do our brands, or our clients' brands, really interact with consumers on social media. You know, I think it's one of those interesting things where people are spending more and more time on these apps, on Instagram, on TikTok, on YouTube, and for whatever reason, it feels like it's more difficult to connect with consumers. And it seems almost counterintuitive. You know, people are on their phone for hours at a time, and yet brands are struggling to build relationships with consumers through social through content in general, so that's been a big challenge, and for us is really understanding, you know, how do these users behave on those social media platforms? And, similar to Duolingo, what role does our client's brand play in that activity? You know, I think that's been something that's been really helpful throughout my career, is what is the role of this brand play in consumers' daily lives? And sometimes it's humor, sometimes it's education, sometimes it's keeping people informed on the latest and greatest. I think when brands can figure that out and understand what role they play in their target audience's life, it becomes a little bit easier, because then you kind of have that figurative North Star, you know, it's similar with Duolingo, right? Where, you know, they do want to teach people how to speak a different language, but at the end of the day, a lot of their social media content is funny content. It makes you laugh. It's kind of bizarre. You're like, what's going on? What am I seeing this owl doing? So, you know, it, you know, their end goal, right, is to get users on a platform to learn a new language, but on social media, they're doing that by entertaining people through non-traditional ways of creating content.
Kerry Guard 9:50
Let's talk about the channels. Let's start there, because I feel like the world has definitely shifted. When I was working at Publicist Modem in 2008, I was. On the Yo Play account. And every October, Yo play does a campaign around breast cancer awareness, and we had this huge opportunity to do a very cool campaign, and the creative team came up with this idea where we would actually take the media budget and donate it to the cause. So the mission was to spend as little money as possible. Help us spend as little money as possible. We're going to totally grassroots this thing. And their cutting edge thing that they did to do this was to create a Facebook page that was like the thing at the time was a Facebook page, and it totally crushed it. We had multiple tabs that people could come interact with. They watched a video of women pledging to make sure that they were going to check themselves for breast cancer early and often. They had a tally, you know, where you could donate. You could actually see how much money was being donated. And then all the share functionality from a grassroots standpoint, to really build momentum around this page. It was a huge success, but it was Facebook, and I feel like Facebook is seeing its heyday, and that ship has sailed. So you mentioned three important channels. You mentioned TikTok, YouTube, and Instagram. I would say, correct me if I'm wrong. I would say the reason why all of those are incredibly successful is because of video. And I would say even more importantly, to what's coming in the shift, even LinkedIn jumped on this bandwagon of shorts. Yes, is that really like, why you're mentioning these three channels, and why those three channels are being successful? Is that particular thing?
Zachary Walker 11:50
That's a great question. Kerry, you know, I think it's a combination of a few things, right? I wish it was a simple answer. I think one, you're absolutely correct that a lot of these major social media platforms are prioritizing short-form video content. So think 15-second videos, shorter, definitely under 30 seconds. Usually shop vertically. So you get that whole screen, you take up all that digital real estate, is what we like to call it. And I think that matches mostly user behavior and consumer behavior, where people are looking for bite-sized clips of entertainment, education, information, so that they can either keep scrolling, do what they're doing, have another sip of coffee, put the phone down, watch TV, whatever it is. And so I think those major platforms are leaning into that at the same time. That doesn't mean that people aren't interested in long-form video content as well. And I think that's why I love YouTube, because they're in this interesting spot of shorts are being really prioritized. A lot of creators are seeing success, and brands are seeing success by even uploading previous content they've created onto YouTube as shorts. But we also know that YouTube is one of the most used search engines on the internet, you know, outside of Google, outside of Bing, outside of DuckDuckGo, like people go to YouTube to learn things and to hopefully visualize what they're trying to understand. So, you know, it is one of those things where, if you have a entertaining or an informative piece of content, the duration of that video is less important. You know, I'd rather it be a minute, and you're going to get my attention for the entire minute, than it'd be 30 seconds, and I want to keep scrolling after 15 seconds of it. So I think that's what's really interesting about, you know, short-form video content. And that's where a lot of you know, the platforms you mentioned, you know, Instagram reels are huge. There. A lot of brands are trying to create more short-form video content. TikTok, obviously, that's where a lot of that short-form video content, and then shorts on YouTube, and even as LinkedIn, right, they're trying to push more video opportunities, whether it's live, whether it's uploading more longer-form content. You know, we've seen a lot of success with our clients and doing almost like a live version, or maybe a pre recorded segment, where you're doing a Q and A session almost similar to this, and you're able to upload that just because people are looking for more education, more in depth knowledge that you sometimes you can't always get on a 15 second video.
Kerry Guard 14:10
I have so many questions. My first question, I know. So here, here's where I come. Here's where my ignorance sort of plays a part. Because honestly, I kind of really hate TikTok.
Zachary Walker 14:22
Trust me, none coming from me.
Kerry Guard 14:25
I really struggle with the fast short for fast short form. I feel like it's like when my daughter is DJing using my phone, she's in the car, and she loves to play music, and she loves to be the DJ the challenge is she switches the song after 10 seconds, and my I'm like, in the middle of literally singing, and then the song is shifted, and my brain is like, what is happening? It drives me up a wall, and I feel like that's what TikTok is. It does not compute. So I'm very much more of the long form. And honestly, I don't really. I think that's why I'm not on any of these channels, because long form, to me, is more of like the master classes or I'm happy to listen to a podcast while I'm cooking. But I really struggle with like these channels. So this is going to come from a place of not thinking that people shouldn't be here as brands. I think they absolutely should be. It's going to come from a place of, well, I'm not. I'm not on there, so I'm sort of struggling with, like, who is who and why should we care? So let's talk about the audience for a minute. We're in the B to B space for my particular listeners, their brands are generally marketing to what I call complex a complex audience, a skeptical audience, an audience that has to interact with marketing because they need a thing, and the only way to get it is to go through us, and they're not happy about it. So it's all about that trust building, right? And video is definitely a great way to do that. But, where you know, for those, for those skeptics, when they're researching, how does social play a role for people who are more on that, in that more research, deep intention mode, versus more of that entertainment just flicking through that short form?
Zachary Walker 16:17
Yeah, that's a great question. Kerry, you know, I think what's really interesting is even on the B to B side, we're still seeing that trend happen, where, for example, one of our clients is a major player in the HVAC space for heating, ventilation, AC, very traditional B to B where you're working with installers, manufacturers. And what we've seen is this generational shift. So, for example, the new generation of HVAC professionals, right? These folks that are in their mid 20s, early 20s, maybe late 20s, right? They grew up using TikTok as consumers, and so they're just used to being on that platform. So now what you're seeing is you have these B-to-B professionals that are used to using a tool as a consumer or a platform as a consumer, and now they're finding ways to bring that into their professional life. And so what's really exciting is that a lot of our clients in the beauty space are like, "How do I play in it?" Like, what's my role? And you know, you're absolutely right. You know, maybe TikTok is more entertaining. You have more fun, more last there. But there are also those individuals who still use TikTok to find information about certain projects, processes, or just really updates overall. So what's been really exciting is that, what may have you know, five years ago or three years ago, people would have never thought, Should my B to B brand be on TikTok? And now it's like, Okay, I think there's a place for us. Maybe we can't allocate enough resources to have a completely separate content strategy, but that's where we come in handy. And it's like thinking about repurposing content, leaning into what we say, like extending the life of a piece of creative, so for example, I'm in the same boat when reels were prioritized. I don't tell anyone, but I have yet to create a reel on my own channel, like it's all carousels. I do stories, and I capture video, and I post that, but an actual reel of like, cutting different clips and putting it all together. I haven't done that on my own personal now for our clients, I've done it. And what's interesting is that even in that same vein, we find ways to go for our clients, like, hey, this video that you posted on Instagram, for example, it's really performing well. It's keeping people engaged. People are asking questions. They're engaged in the comments. So how do we take that magic and maybe put it to Tiktok, and maybe we tweak a little things, maybe we change the background music, maybe we make it a little bit shorter. So I think there are opportunities where even if you're like, I don't have the time to be on TikTok, that's okay. I think where it is important is leaning into what's currently available, and sometimes that's just repurposing content for a different platform. And so even in the B to B space, that's a lot of the suggestions that we've leaned into is, hey, you've got a piece of creative that's really working. See how it lands on a different platform. And it doesn't have to be TikTok, it could be LinkedIn, it could be x. There are a lot of great opportunities to really just expand your overall digital footprint by evaluating what's working and what's not on other channels.
Kerry Guard 19:14
And that's really what needs to happen nowadays, right? Like it's that surround sound that needs to be created, and your audience needs to see you pretty much in each place. It's not because you're trying to meet them on that one channel that they're in. It's trying to connect with them across channels, and so that your brand that building that brand recognition, which really comes to my next question, which is around breaking through all this noise, when you have this much content being created, it's no different than me going to Netflix and be like, What am I going to watch today, and then immediately getting overwhelmed to be like nothing, because I can't decide, because there's too many options that I'm going back to the to that tried and true, tried and true, Big Bang Theory, or friends. That's just where I. End up. So when we're talking about all this content and being on all these channels, how do we break through that noise? Or is it just how the algorithms work, and we just got to follow the process, and it'll all be okay?
Zachary Walker 20:17
I wish we all be okay, because then I would have a lot more restful nights, I think. But, you know, I think what, what really, I've come to learn and experience, is what works now probably won't work a year from now, and what worked a year ago probably doesn't work today. And so it is like any other form of marketing. It is a test-and-learn opportunity. And so for us, it's, you know, what are those minor tweaks? What are those levers that we can pull that maybe is not overhauling, you know, our entire content strategy, but, like, what can we try differently? So, for example, could we try going live, you know, could we show a little bit behind the scenes? Yes, exactly, right. What are those that you know, doesn't have to be some well thought out 30-minute long. You know, an Instagram Live session, it could be two minutes where you're just doing a little Q and A, and you're letting your audience interact with you in a different way. So I think for us, that's what's been really effective, is like, what are those small tweaks that we can do? Maybe it's changing your content strategy up. So for example, on LinkedIn, we've pushed one of our clients in the higher education space to really lean into LinkedIn articles as part of their overall blog content strategy, where they'll create regular blog content on their website, and then we'll take that same content, repurpose it, tweak it for the platform, and then post it on LinkedIn as an article, just knowing that LinkedIn is trying to push more of that thought leadership content, and sometimes that just means Giving a little extra boost in the in the feed. From an algorithm standpoint, it's really, you know, I wish there was a silver ball, or, you know, a crystal ball that would tell me exactly what to do. But you know, for us, it really is about being open to test-and-learn opportunities. See what else is out there in the space. See how brands like Duolingo, for example, are doing things differently. And that doesn't mean that you have to, you know, go that route entirely. You know, when I used to work on, I used to work on Fireball Whiskey at the time, and one of the clients was like, you know, I want us to be like Wendy's. I want us to be snarky on social media. I want us to like Jib Jab with our audience. And, you know, sometimes that works, and sometimes it doesn't, you know, maybe for a brand like Fireball that's already kind of snarky and a little bit edgy, that works, but if you're a brand that is soft and warm and fuzzy, you know that that doesn't really, that doesn't really mesh. And so I think where you're seeing is a lot of brands are trying to figure out what works, and sometimes it's a reach, and sometimes it may just have a noticeable impact. But I think another thing that's been really helpful is tying in other strategies that maybe traditional marketing channels are very familiar with. So, for example, recently, Instagram updated their search capabilities. So you know, a couple years ago, if you tapped on a hashtag, it would show you, maybe, like, the top 10 posts that have the most engagements. They use that hashtag nowadays. If you type in a specific keyword or a hashtag, you're going to get not just a top performing content, you're going to get way more. And that helps, not only you as a marketer, understand, like, what type of content should I be creating? What does this audience need, but then also it helps from a discovery standpoint. So if I'm a consumer and I'm looking for, to your point, maybe something highly technical, or maybe a little more complex than just a recipe, the ability to search for some of those more complex or technical keywords makes that user experience a lot easier. So if you're a B to B, but organization, you can still reach that the audience that's looking for more complex, more technical information; you have to use the strategies that are available to meet them.
Kerry Guard 23:50
Let's pull back for a second, because I think there are two things you're touching on that I want to hone. One is the audience, right? So one key element that I'm seeing on LinkedIn in particular, in terms of, quote, unquote hot takes, my favorite is this notion of going viral, or that you need to have a really big audience and following, and there seems to be a lot of pushback that's now happening, I think, in a good way. Finally, with taking the pressure off, I think of trying to feel like you got to be, you know, have all these numbers to like back you up, you know. You know, every post has to have 200, you know, plus engagements. And that's starting to like stabilize, I think, in what's reality. And so I feel like, while there's a lot of content out there, how the algorithms are curating it for the audience is becoming very, very clear. What's your take when it comes to reaching the audience on these platforms? What numbers matter? Are we talking about a huge swap? Because of, you know, visibility. Do can we see who's engaging with the content to know that it is the right audience, and that doesn't matter, or do we have to go after, you know, as many eyeballs as possible, because we're hoping for that 1% is the right people who are seeing it? So I know that's going to vary channel to channel, and what analytics are possible, but just help us. If we're looking at YouTube, Instagram, and LinkedIn, how should we be thinking about these in terms of capturing our true audience?
Zachary Walker 25:30
All good questions. Kerry, you know, I think one, I am a huge proponent of the idea of virality when it comes to content, no longer being, I'll hopefully say, the end goal, right? And I think, you know, it is a balancing act, and something that we communicate with our clients about pretty regularly, where, you know, they'll maybe see a trend, you know, you if you know, recent times with Charlie XCX and Brad or demure, if you're, you know, on Instagram or x you know, those things are trending and they're viral, and it gets a lot of conversation where you have to thread the needle is, is you kind of alluded to? It? Are all those additional impressions, all those views, all those engagements, are those really having an impact on your overall business goals and objectives, and, from a B to B standpoint, is it really getting more people into your marketing funnel? So you know, for example, if you lean too far into a trend and maybe it goes viral, right? Maybe it's less about your brand or your product or your service, and it's more about the trend. You may get more impressions, you may get more views, you may get more engagements. People may share it. But as a B to B marketer, if I tell you, I'm bringing in 10 million impressions, but the number of landing page visits is the same, or the number of email subscriptions is the same, or the number of subscriptions is the same, is that really a success? And most people will probably say, No, you garnered a bunch of stuff, but it didn't really have an impact on your business, and so I think that's what's really important, is finding that balance between like, okay, it would be great if our content reached a lot more people at scale, but if all they're doing is liking it and moving on, is that really successful for us? It's how do we get them to click on that link? How do we get them to sign up for the newsletter? How do we get them to stay on the landing page long enough to either learn something about our clients or learn something about the business? And so for me, that's where I try to think about it. You know, those metrics are great, but at the end of the day, if I'm not driving sales, if I'm not helping out our, you know, our clients overall objectives to grow their their marketing funnel, it's, I won't say it's fluff, but it's not as impactful, and so, you know, it is a balancing act. I think a lot of marketers are seeing that now, where, okay, it would be cool to be viral. It'd be cool if my tweet ended up in Ad Week, or, you know, somebody in my personal life reached out and said, Hey, I saw your brand pop up in my feed. That's an awesome feeling. But what's really an awesome feeling is having a noticeable impact on your business and your goals, and be able to go to your leadership team and say, this content strategy is done X, Y, and Z, and here's how it's helped. I think taking that a step further, you know, getting it out of content and thinking about it more holistically as a marketing opportunity is how do you connect the dots from an ecosystem? And so what we love to do is with a lot of our clients, we're not just doing their social media content strategy, we're doing their email marketing, we're doing their website, we're doing their blogs. So what I love is that we're able to kind of connect those dots between those different touch points. And as you kind of alluded to, that it's not just how do I meet them on Facebook and Instagram and LinkedIn, it's how do I meet them where they are? And sometimes that's in their inbox. Sometimes it's when they're on YouTube, and we serve them, you know, an ad through programmatic. You know, we know, as marketers, it takes multiple touch points to get a consumer to take an action. So if I'm able to do one touch point on social, one touch point on email, and one touch point through, you know, a display ad, I'm almost halfway there. So you know, it's really those opportunities where we've seen a lot of success, like, how do we think about this as an ecosystem and not just like a siloed marketing channel?
Kerry Guard 29:09
100% I'm with you there, where we do something very similar to mkg. We don't do social, the social organic side. We do the social advertising side. And so, one of the shifts that I helped one of our clients make was that they were doing a lot of downloads of assets from LinkedIn, which are incredibly expensive, right? Where I was more of like, well, can we look at LinkedIn from this, from the aspect of the fact that we know that it's the exact right people, that is the beauty of LinkedIn. And while LinkedIn prefers people to stay on their platform, it's actually more expensive to keep them there. Will be better to use the advertising piece and drive them to the website, create retargeting, and then retarget them off of that around the ecosystem with much cheaper cost per clicks, bringing them back to then download or down. You know, do a trial. Or whatever, and, you know, cultivate it that way and more of it, to your point, an ecosystem, versus relying on this one place that they are hoping that maybe they'll do that download that will cost me $500 a download, versus, you know, the $20 per click of the exact right the right people. I also really love video on LinkedIn from an advertising standpoint; it's been working wonders for us in terms of brand building. And I really do think, from what you're talking about, Sacramento love, and what I also think, if we can think about this from a B to B perspective, is that this is all brand building, folks. It is not lead generation, yes. So one of the metrics I love to look at from a brand-building standpoint, whether you're running video ads on LinkedIn, whether you're doing shorts on Instagram, whether you're, you know, whatever that brand-building activity, which should be to your point, the ecosystem. One of the metrics I love to look at is social media or, sorry, SEO impression volume, right? And has that search volume for your name-branded search gone up? It's a wonderful, easy metric to look at to see if you turn this thing on. What does that do? Right? Are people now looking for you more often? It's, it's, and it really helps separate the two SEO bottom of funnel, right? It's not the bottom of the funnel like email and nurture is, but it's that next step right before they become a lead. Yep, that step right before they come ahead. So if you can build up those impressions based off of this lovely brand building you're doing, then you know that you're making an impact further down funnel, that then you can then use from an email standpoint. So I love, I love this. I have to say, I find social media, and the reason why I haven't touched it is I find it scary and daunting. So I love for you to help me understand, and I love what you're talking about in terms of, like, taking one piece of content and slicing and dicing it, yes, and to that, but I still find that to build up a true, I even struggle with this my own LinkedIn profile, right? Like, Oh God, I gotta write on LinkedIn again. Keep it going. What am I gonna say today? Right? Like it is. It is work to write something that is intentional and thoughtful. Where do you come into play in regard to this piece? Because for me, I will only write if I feel like I have something really thoughtful to say, which means I'm not writing every day. Are you in that camp, or are you in the camp of just get it out there? Just be publishing every day. Be in the habit. And you know, the posts that are good will land, and the posts that aren't, that's okay, because you're building that muscle. Like, what's I here for both? I think it depends on the person. But like, if you were to give that kind of advice to a brand or a person who's trying to build a personal brand, where, where do you fall in that camp?
Zachary Walker 32:54
All great questions. Kerry, you know, I think for me, I've been both. And so I started in that the latter group just creates content, publish, publish, publish as much as you can, until it becomes a pain, or you're like, I don't want to do it anymore. And you know, maybe now I look back at it, I really started that during COVID, and because, like a lot of us, we were home, I had way more free time. So I was like, Oh, I got all this extra time. Yeah, too much free time. And so I used to publish weekly content, like, not just, like, here, you know, here's 500 words, like, really in-depth, content that dove into specific topics from an overall marketing standpoint. And over the years, I realized that it, I think that really helped me, one get into the mindset of, like, just continuing to write, to be able to put my thoughts down in the paper and to publish that out externally. I think that's also another thing, too. Sometimes, people I talk with they're like, I don't know if anybody wants to hear what I have to say or what I think, and sometimes just doing the emotions gets you over that mental hurdle. So I think that had helped me to begin with, do I do that now? Absolutely not. Now I'm in the form of like, okay, here's something that's really trending or maybe relevant that I think my audience would want to learn more about. Let me write about that. And now I don't write weekly. You know, I'll probably write maybe once a month. I try to publish maybe more short-form content. So, like LinkedIn, I'll publish more articles or thought pieces there, then maybe write something a little bit longer on my website. But I also want to kind of connect the dots to what you said just prior to that, about like building the brand, and whether that's as a B to B organization or as a personal brand, consumers want to interact with brands that they they know, or they feel that they know, and so sometimes having that content that shows who you are as an individual, who you are as an organization, what you stand for, helps connect those dots. And so for me, I think that was really helpful when I started to create not just written content, but social media content. You know, if you look at my Instagram, there's very little about my professional life on there. You know, I. Want that to be more of a reflection of who I am, versus my LinkedIn, where you'll rarely see anything about my personal life, because I want to be able to share the things that I think are relevant to those audiences. So, you know, you're right. It is daunting, you know, I'll say, for example, if there was a chart I could pull up the amount of content that I've created over the years has gone down, it would just be straight down into the right, like it's gone down. I'm comfortable with it. I recognize that, like, that's not where I want to spend as much of my time. But that doesn't mean that I'm not in the fee. That doesn't mean I'm not engaging with my audience or engaging with our clients audiences. So it's a little bit of a balancing act, but I think also giving yourself a little bit of grace and recognizing that, you know, there's a lot going on. We're all human beings. We all have different things going on in our lives. And some weeks, some months, it's going to feel like, Oh, I could just write for days, or Oh, I could just, you know, knock out this white paper or whatever, in some weeks, or some months, it's like, I don't even want to touch my keyboard unless I absolutely have to. And so I think for me, it's been really helpful, and just giving myself that grace, that you know they're going to be sometimes where I feel really energetic, and sometimes I'm not. And I guess that's like most things in life, right?
Kerry Guard 36:09
Yeah, yeah. No, that's the struggle is definitely real. As a founder, I will say the other one of the other really interesting topics that's happening on LinkedIn, and we're talking about, we sort of shifted to personal brand, which I think is helpful, because as a small company or startup, even a scale up, your founders are incredibly they are your they whether they know it or not, or like it or not, they are your first marketing hire, right? They and sales. They're doing both. They're trying to get the word out there in one way or another. Some people go all in on sales, making connections, and networking. Some people go all in on marketing and building their brand on LinkedIn. Some people do both. Where do you know when you're working with a brand to help them build up that visibility? Does personal branding with founders come into play, or do you generally try and stick more to the brand persona and build that up as a, you know, the company pages and that realm?
Zachary Walker 37:11
I think, you know, as you, as you continue to scale and grow up, I think that would shift a little bit. So I think, to your point, if you're a startup, if you're a solopreneur, really, I'd say maybe, like 200 people in your organization, individual stories have such a huge impact. And I think, you know, to your point, Kerry, I would much rather hear from the CEO or a founder of a startup of 10 people than maybe the CEO of Coca-Cola. And so, you know, I think, like, there is that balancing act of like people want to know individuals who like we're just we're storytellers. We love to hear stories. And so, even in a professional realm or a personal brand, people want to hear those stories. And so I am completely agree with you that if you have the ability to share insights with the people behind the organization that is so huge. And I think you kind of touched on it, right? You know, you know, sales. Maybe they're focused on sales. I would argue that if you're securing a you know, think about it from a startup perspective. A lot of startups, you know, founders came from either a previous startup, or maybe they came from the industry that they're in, and that's their story, right? So when they go to sell, you know, my startup role, it was selling financial technology to banks. A lot of our co-founders were part of the financial institution in one way or another, whether for a card issuer or for a bank or financial institution. So when they would sell at conferences or when they're on the phone, they're telling their story. You know, I understand your pain points, because I used to work at this card issuer. So, you know, I would argue that that is storytelling. You maybe it's not a piece of content, but you're the same thing that you're telling to hopefully get a lead to convert, is the same story I would want to tell as a piece of social media content or in an email newsletter. So, you know, I think what we're seeing more of now is business leaders, founders, entrepreneurs. Now recognize that whether you want to or not, people want to hear from you as an individual, and so if you want to stand out, if you want to make those conversations easier down the line, tell your story, be open as much as you want to be. But I think that's a really huge opportunity that more and more business leaders, even in the B to B space, are recognizing that, like people want to know who I am and why I started this organization, or why I feel so passionate about solving this major issue. You know, startup Life is not easy. Tech Life is not easy. So if somebody is willing to put in those hours to deal with those stressful nights, those stressful days, there's a reason. And I think when you're able to learn what that reason is through a piece of content or through a phone call, or through, you know, a podcast like this, it really helps humanize a brand. And sometimes that's what gets people to make an action or take action over your competitor. Yeah.
Kerry Guard 40:00
I think that's so true. I you know, one of the reasons why I love working with founders is for that reason is to help bring them online in a really thoughtful way. And I recognize too, that not it's not for every founder, and some founders find it really, really tough. So I'm happy like I'll do ghost writing, essentially, where I'll do the initial writing and then they'll review it with me, and then we'll publish it together. But I think it's really important to meet your founders where they are, and not every founder is going to be okay with this. So how can you coach them through it? Like it's it's you, especially when working with technical founders, like, right? Super scary, super scary for them, and so it's up to us as the experts to, like, hold their hand through that and be really passionate, you know, respectful of their limitations and what they're comfortable with, because you don't want somebody awkward who's not into it either, right? It's a delicate balancing act, and I do think it's a leg up for any founders who can do it and want to do it, but I don't think it's determined if you don't want to do it, like, that's okay too. We'll find another way. There's definitely power in it, but, like, it's okay not to as well, especially if you're technical. So I really appreciate you saying that. Zachary, I think it's helpful to know there is a leg up there. And, you know, I think we could also recognize that this stop for everybody, no.
Zachary Walker 41:21
And that's very strategic, you know, I think understanding, even, you know, as marketers, right, understanding your audience, and then in that case, your audience is your co-founders. And so I think it's really smart thinking, right, to be like, Hey, I know this individual does not want to be on camera doing a live session talking about, you know, business objectives. They'd rather be talking about the product or the latest updates. Latest updates to the app or the platform. But to your point, what if we, instead of getting you in front of a camera, what if we write a piece of long-form content? What if we do a blog post, or what if we do a series of long-form written pieces of content, and sometimes for maybe those folks that are more camera shy, or maybe they just don't feel comfortable being in front of the camera. That's another opportunity. So I think that's really smart, Kerry, to understand your audience, and sometimes your audience is your internal one, and recognizing that we all have different strengths, you know, in opportunities for growth,
Kerry Guard 42:17
absolutely in terms of Persona, I think this is really key. Some things we've talked about, we sort of danced around this. Danced around the subject a little bit. I think, from a personal standpoint, like as a person, it's to bring your personality to the table, right? So when you and I show up, it's, we're gonna get into AI a little bit here, because I think it's helpful. But I have really tried to train ChatGPT to write my content. For me, I have loaded up every single LinkedIn post I've done for the last six months to say, this is how I write ChatGPT, this is what it looks like. Here's my long form, here's my short form, here's my tone, here's how I like to show up. And it still cannot do it. It cannot. It just does not understand how I write, which is fine for the brands. And when we're talking about persona, Duolingo being a great example of that, I feel like it is definitely easier on the B to C side to crew and sort of create an avatar or personality that goes with it. We talked about Wendy's being a bit snarky when you're showing up on social. You do want to have a sense of brand tone and how you show up. So, how do you go about helping brands identify that personality? I feel I'm wrong in saying that as a brand, you kind of need to have a personality when you're showing up on social, feel like you're saying that?
Zachary Walker 43:38
Am I picking up on that you are 100%, and I think that applies for all organizations, B to B, B to C, any industry you're thinking about, you need to think about, What does my brand stand for, and how do we show up? It's kind of like, you know what I talked about earlier, what role does my brand or my organization play in our target audience's life? And so whether you're rarely talking with consumers, you know, daily, like in a b-to-c realm, or you're only talking with them once every six months, because that's how your business operates. People should understand who your organization is, and when we like to say it is, like, what's your figurative North Star? And, you know, I think you've, we've all heard different ways like to talk about it, you know, like the brand archetypes, like the magician or the Explorer. You know, those traditional, like thematic ways a brand can show up. Those are great opportunities where, you know, you don't have to follow that T to, you know, to the letter, but what you can use is use that as, like, a guiding light. And so, for example, you know, the magician. Maybe an easy example would be like Disney, they want to show up and wow you. They want to, they want to literally mesmerize you with the ability to make you go like, Wow. What a magical experience. Right now, can a B to B organization do that the same way as Disney? Can probably not, but that doesn't mean that B-to-B organizations. Still can't mesmerize or wow their audience through whatever product or service that they're pushing, and so I think that's been really helpful. And I think tying a little bit back to the AI component, you know, I think it's really interesting to see how, like even generative AI, over the last year, it has been a huge topic from consumer standpoint, from an advertising standpoint, from a marketing standpoint, and despite how much the overall conversation and volume has increased, as you've noted it, nobody's cracked the code yet, right? Nobody's been able to go, okay, I can get 100% of my work done, or 80% of my work done with AI, and that's kind of how I see it similarly too, right where it should be just another part of your toolkit, where you can use AI to help you generate content ideas, to maybe help you. Know, another good way to think about it is like, if I need to write the same thing five times, it's very hard to write the same thing five times, but maybe AI can help you and get you maybe two ways that you're not thinking about it, and one way that I've really thought about AI in terms of, you know, even in our advertising space and for our B to B client of ours, you know, we were doing a giveaway, and our ECD, or our executive creative director, you know, he brought up a really great example where he's like, you know, I asked chat GPT, I'm doing a giveaway for this type of organization. What are some fun and exciting giveaway opportunities? And you know, when he and I talked, he was like, Oh, I got maybe 10 Suggestions from ChatGPT. He was like, two of them were really good. And I was like, Wow, I can't believe I didn't think of these. Now, how do I apply those to my brand? A few of them were like, I've already thought of these. The rest of her, like, they're bad, they'll never work. And to your point, I think that's the that's us as marketers, recognizing that AI is not up to the point yet where it understands not only our brand, how we communicate, who we are, but also some of those strategic insights. You know, like, AI doesn't understand the complexities of a B to B organization and the challenges that they face. Even if you input it, there's no way to know that it's truly taking that into consideration. And so I agree with you. I, you know, I think it's a tool. It hasn't replaced my work. I don't know if it will replace my work entirely, but for me, I use it as an opportunity to like, am I thinking of everything? Is there something that I'm not privy to? Or maybe there's another way to think about what I'm doing in a different way. And so, you know, I think even from a brand perspective, you know, you can't expect ChatGPT to get your brand tone or your brand voice, but what it can do is maybe get you 50% of the way there, and it's like, okay, it's understanding what I've asked it to do. Now, how do I weave in my brand or my organization to make sure that the content or the messaging resonates with my audience?
Kerry Guard 47:47
I think that's really important. I do think my husband I were just talking about this yesterday, how it feels like the AI hype is maybe actually toning down, and everybody's realizing that it's really just a parrot, like it really is just taking a lot of information on the internet, paring it down, and regurgitating it to us in a different way. And so I think now that we've all had a play, and we've all sort of figured that out on our own, we're now figuring out how to use it. So how I use it, it for my clients is, I always write the content first, so I do a newsletter for my for my coaching client. And I always write his newsletter because he has such a particular he's got such great stories and a great way of saying them that I sort of want to try and capture that as I heard them. And then I'll put it through chat. GBT, I've loaded up a lot of his content from the past, and I just say, Hey, can you rewrite this? And it changes, actually, very little. That's what's so fascinating about it, is I was like, Yes, I feel like I've captured his tone. Because chat GBT is really not doing a whole lot with it. It's just kind of tidying it up a bit. It's tightening it up. I'm very verbose, so it's sort of like takes out a lot of those fillers and just makes a little snappier. So that's how I've been using it, really, really helpful. The other thing I absolutely love. I'm having a whale of a time with Dolly, like, from an image generation standpoint, when you can, like, get those prom style in, it is so fun, and creating imagery that I am not an illustrator. I'm a photographer by design, because I like, take what's already existing in the world and, like, make pretty pictures of it, but I cannot just take things that are out of thin air. Nope, nothing but Dolly Cannon. That's awesome, yes. So I'm using it that way as well. And to your point, I'm also using it for IDEA generators, like if I'm going to write a newsletter, but I'm just not quite sure I did it today. I was like, I need a post about Labor Day and how it relates to executive coaching. Can I just have some thought starters? And I actually didn't use any of them, but in reading their thought starters, it gave me an idea, and then I was able to start from that. So it's, it is just this really great, you know, as a remote, as remote people, as. Only children who still cannot delegate. Although we're working on it, we're working on it. It is a nice pairing tool, like a brainstorm partner, when you're, you know, on your own. So I love that we're in agreement here, ChatGPT is not coming for our jobs. Y'all, especially when it comes to brand building, social media, really being thoughtful about our presence online. Last question for you, Zachary, from a social media standpoint, for all of those like me who find social media very overwhelming and daunting, especially when you have to be on three platforms at the same time like magic, what advice do you have for us in in getting started in a way that does take you mentioned it, take that lovely piece of content you did for your website and now distribute it. Because what one thing you said, and I want to be very clear on this, is, you didn't say, just take it from your website, copy and paste it, and put it over there. So is it? Do we need to do a video? Do we have to get over that hump? Can we do written content? What's your best recommendation to say, this is the best way to activate these channels, and here's the best way to get started. Yes.
Zachary Walker 51:11
So yes, for the record, do not just copy and paste what's on your website and post it on X or, you know, turn that into some sort of LinkedIn post. It is it is repurposing content with intention and also strategically. So, you know, I think for me, what I try to guide our clients, and even when I'm outside of our office, when people I'm just having conversations with marketers, is I would rather be active on two social media channels, doing it consistently, then try and be on five and struggling or feeling like I'm overwhelmed, it's nobody wins. You know, you're we as marketers don't love that feeling. Our the content probably won't be as effective because you're either rushing or you feel like you can't put enough time into it, and then it's not going to resonate with your audience. So, you know, I think, start small, be consistent over trying to be everywhere at the same time. I think also too, you know, understanding your capabilities from a resources standpoint and from a bandwidth so, you know, if you're a startup and you've got four people in your organization, you know, for example, would it be great if you could create reels on Instagram? Sure, we also want to be realistic and give ourselves grace, and so it is okay to take static imagery and post that on to Instagram. Now, maybe you could do a carousel where you're using four images instead of just one, where you've got a bunch of texts on the screen. Like that, to me, is a step up from the bare minimum to building out a reel and creating that video. So I think you know, for example, if you're trying to repurpose your blog content on your website, find that most engaging blog, what has the most landing page views, or the website visits, what is keeping people on site the longest, and find ways to repurpose that content. So, for example, if you have a blog that's maybe 500 words, turn that into a LinkedIn article. You could do some trimming, maybe make it a little bit punchier, get rid of some of the things that maybe are not as important, and post it on LinkedIn. Another opportunity, you know, speaking about carousels, you could take, you know, some of that that same blog. What are the four things that I want to communicate to my audience from that blog and turn that into, you know, a carousel? And really, like, you could put a little bit of text on asset, or we call to a, and really just put that on there and find opportunities to repurpose that content. You know, I think what's been really effective for us is leaning into the data. And I think that's what's been really exciting, too. And it doesn't just have to be blog content. It could be content. It could be an email newsletter. It could be, you know, for example, if you're doing talks at a conference, if you did a talk at a conference or a panel, and somebody's asking you, or you're on your your co-founders a bunch of questions. Use that as a content idea. Your co-founder may have already been talking about it, so they're familiar. Hey, what were those questions they asked you at the last conference? Can you write those down so that I can then turn that into a blog? The good news is there are a lot of opportunities to just find creative ways to create content, and also know that those are all test and learn opportunities.
Kerry Guard 54:16
I think that's really, really helpful. The last thing I want to say, last question I want to ask before I close out here, Zachary, is what tools are you using when you're mentioning creating carousels or clipping videos? Is there tools, AI or not? Ai, that's helping you work a little faster to move that content from a wall of words to something more snackable?
Zachary Walker 54:38
Yeah, same thing here, you know, there's not one tool that solves all those problems. But, you know, I think, from a content creation standpoint, Canva is perfectly fine if you don't need a pro version, you know, yes, I use it, you know, for some visuals on my website, for other pieces of content to help my clients. From an entrepreneurial standpoint. Yeah, that's been really effective. Don't feel like you need to pay for Canva. Use the free version until you find enough opportunities where you can use the paid version. You know, for example, we talked about a little bit about AI later. You know, they have some great educational content. They also have a tool like a caption writer. It's aI powered that allows marketers to use that tool to help with their caption writing, or their post copy, their copywriting skills. And then, I think, lastly, to another great one. You're talking about Dalian image generation, Charlie. It's an AI tool they, I found out about them maybe about two years ago. They are an AI tool that's literally meant for marketers. So helping with image generation, helping with repurposing content, take this 2000-word white paper and turn it into a 500-word blog, image generation. You know that tool for me, when I saw it, I was like, This is great. It's not to the point yet, as we've talked about, where it's going to replace your marketing team or your marketing lead, but it is so helpful to be able to just be able to leverage AI to either help with my content writing skills or from an image generation standpoint. So, you know, I think any of those tools will really help. And then, you know, there's probably plenty that I'm not thinking about, but when you get to that stage where you're able to use, you know, tools like Sprout Social or HubSpot, or, you know, any of those platforms where you can get more robust data, you can then use that data to help you better figure out what type of content you want to create moving forward.
Kerry Guard 56:33
So helpful. I could talk with you for hours and days. Zachary Peter started to yell at us and giving us a heads up. Sorry. Time to go before. Before we go. One last question. Hold on, Peter. Don't start the music. One last question for you. Zachary, you are a human who is more than a marketer, and I want to know we are. I know that Q4 doesn't technically start till October 1, but let's be real. September 1 come kids goes back to school, and it is on. What are you most looking forward to in the last four months of 2024
Zachary Walker 57:05
Okay, professionally, I'm very excited to just see how a lot of these marketing trends, as we've talked about, really end out the year, and will those be trends in 2025 moving forward? So what role does AI play? What role do new platforms like threads? You know, is that going to be something that really everybody starts using in 2025, for a marketing tool? And then, personally, you know, for me, I'm really excited to just see how marketing evolves as a whole. You know, I'm a consumer. At the end of the day, I engage with brands, both B to B and B to C organizations. And so for me, I just love to see, like, how do these brands, once again, play a role in my life? What information are they giving me? How are they educating me? How are they informing me? And most importantly, how are they entertaining me? And so for me, it's really exciting to see how my work also plays a little bit in my own role as a consumer. And so those are really the big things that I'm looking forward to.
Kerry Guard 58:02
I love it. I want to keep talking, but we are out of time, folks. I'm tough to have Zachary back, and that's just that. We'll bring Elizabeth on. We'll have a powwow.
Zachary Walker 58:09
Yes, please. Would love that. Thank you again for having me on, Kerry. This has been great.
Kerry Guard 58:13
Thank you, and thank you to our listeners. This episode is brought to you by mkg marketing, the digital marketing agency that helps complex brands get found via SEO and digital ads. It's hosted by me, Kerry Guard, CEO and co-founder of MKG Marketing, Music Mix and Mastery, done by Snappy. And if you want to be a guest, give me a shot. Love to have you on. Let's do it. Thank you again. Zachary.