Laura McAliley
Founder of Pebble Marketing and a strategic fractional CMO, Laura helps early-stage startups turn founder insight into scalable marketing traction.
Overview:
In this episode of Back on T-R-A-C-K, Laura McAliley joins the show to break down how most founders sabotage their own marketing—and how to stop. They cover the hidden costs of going tactical too early, the importance of defining your ICP and positioning before turning on paid channels, and why personal branding alone won’t fuel growth. If your startup is struggling to gain traction, this episode outlines what to do first, what to ignore, and how to build a marketing foundation that actually works.
Transcript:
Laura McAliley 0:00
Marketing's changed a lot in the last few years. And just putting up a campaign and talking about one thing for a while, it doesn't work as well as it used to. So, but that's okay. We all, I mean, we know this because we all sit in this world all the time, but if you don't see this world, you don't know that. So, and when you're talking about spending money, and it's a early stage startup, or they're seed-funded, or you're bootstrapping, then talking about spending amounts of money is hard, so sometimes it takes.
Kerry Guard 0:29
There are two camps. There are people who are like, "Just go and spend; I'll tell you when to stop." Yep. And then there are people who are like, I'm scared, like, here's here's a penny. What can you do with it? Yes, what are the pros and cons of both of those approaches?
Laura McAliley 0:48
Well, sometimes I think, and you know, you can overspend, and then you see your results tank because you're not getting good leads. You're just spraying and praying. How much money can I put out there, and will it bring in? It's, it's not a strategic shop, I guess I would say.
Kerry Guard 1:12
And we are live. Hi, welcome back to Back on Track. It's great to be here. So excited to have you, Laura, so excited, and you're back. You're back with us, as you were on with Tea Time and Tech marketing Leaders many a moon ago. But we have new stuff to unpack, because you are no longer at a company, but you are out on your own. And we are going to get to all of those things before we dive in a little bit about. Laura McAliley, we're going deep on why your marketing is stalling and why the slow down to speed up mantra is the only way out of the plateau. We're breaking down how to build your foundation and whether you should DIY it or bring in a partner. This show is brought to you by MKG Marketing. We help B to B tech companies get back on track by building sustainable marketing engines through expert strategy and execution. We don't do silver bullets. We do systems, and Laura is one of our marketing experts who we bring to the table, and why I'm having her here today. Laura, before we get into it, yes, let's do a little warm-up. Shake it off. Let's go. Find our feet here. There we go. Let's play a quick round of word association. I'll give you a phrase, and you give me the first tactical thought that pops into your head, and listeners, if you're with us today, hi everybody. We are live. Live is really fun, and games are really fun live, so feel free to put your own answers in the comments. We'd love to hear from you. All right. Laura, are you ready? Ready? First thought, growth hacking.
Laura McAliley 2:42
I don't like hacking and marketing. Let's be a little more strategic. What do you say? Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.
Kerry Guard 2:53
You got it? You got it? Yeah, ideal customer profile.
Laura McAliley 2:58
Foundational, necessary. I don't think you can do marketing anymore without it.
Kerry Guard 3:02
Brand awareness
Laura McAliley 3:07
Is also necessary, but not what we used to think of it. I think it's it. It for a long time was thought is very fluffy, and now it is so important to have that top of the funnel brand awareness, because people are searching and learning about you in places that you don't own. So you need to be out there to get them at the beginning of their search before they're even thinking about buying.
Kerry Guard 3:29
Oh, we're going to unpack all those things, marketing agency.
Laura McAliley 3:34
I love my marketing agency partners. I think there's a very important role for marketing agencies in today's marketing world, because you need specialists. But if you don't have somebody who can run strategy and help make that agency and the company successful, it often fails. So I don't think marketing agencies fail as much as people think because they last one. Not good. Awesome.
Kerry Guard 4:00
Okay, sorry. Last one, I cut you off there because I know my internet, okay. Last word, the foundation.
Unknown Speaker 4:08
Is everything. The foundation
Kerry Guard 4:11
Is market research. Going back to that.
Laura McAliley 4:15
I mean, if you don't have a track, you don't have a foundation for your house, then things don't stay moving forward, and I think it's becoming more important than it's been in a long time.
Kerry Guard 4:28
I would agree. So let's get after it then, of really defining what it means to have a foundation and start with this question. When a founder tells you that they need more leads right now, what are the first three questions you ask to see if their think phase is actually broken?
Laura McAliley 4:46
How are you getting leads? Now? Do you know who your ideal customer profile is, and what exactly does now mean, because things take time, so let's sit some realistic time.
Kerry Guard 5:00
Lines. How does that go over?
Laura McAliley 5:05
Not often, well, and sometimes, I mean, the reality is that sometimes you have to get some things going to show, hey, we can get this going results, I can't promise anything, and then back into let them learn a little bit on their own. Marketing's changed a lot in the last few years. And just putting up a campaign and talking about one thing for a while, it doesn't work as well as it used to. So, but that's okay. We all, I mean, we know this because we all sit in this world all the time, but if you don't sit in this world, you don't know that. So, and when you're talking about spending money, and it's a early stage startup, or they're seed-funded, or you're bootstrapping, then talking about spending big amounts of money is hard, so sometimes it takes.
Kerry Guard 5:50
I think there are two camps. There are people who are like, "Just go and spend; I'll tell you when to stop." Yep. And then there are people who are like, I'm scared, like, here's a penny. What can you do with it? Yes, what are the pros and cons of both approaches?
Laura McAliley 6:08
Well, sometimes I think, and you know, you can overspend, and then you see your results tank because you're not getting good leads. You're just spraying and praying. How much money can I put out there, and will it bring in? It's, it's not a strategic shop. I guess I would say, on the other hand, if you only give me a penny, I really need, like, all the pennies, because we need to be able to move things around, like, sometimes we need SEO, and when SEO starts working, then we can shift things into bet, more organic social, and start boosting social we need. We need to do more ops to get the newsletter functioning better and sales pipelines running more efficiently, so we're not missing anything. You need to at least give me some of the pennies so that we can mix and match all the tactics and make sure we're reaching people where they are. There are so many different places now that people need to see your brand takes a lot of it. Takes a lot of coordination.
Kerry Guard 7:05
What specific data point in a CRM usually proves to a founder that their positioning is off? I would have torn the data in general. Doesn't have to be a CRM necessarily. But like, do you use data to help you sort of point to point to a thing and say this isn't landing? Yeah.
Laura McAliley 7:23
So I mean, conversions are always a thing, whatever your CTA is, that button click is important, except that now that's changing. So I mean search visibility across all of the different types of search we have now is going to be super important, or is more important now than it was. I think as we build messaging, I'm a big believer in organic Social Still, but not just organic social from the brand, but also from internal stakeholders as well. So if messages aren't landing in social, then we need to look at and refine those messages. Surprisingly, we've been using email again, so really it's the reactions, the impressions, and the reactions that I look for, depending on what channel we're looking in.
Kerry Guard 8:15
So top So leading indicators, yeah, not necessarily pipeline.
Laura McAliley 8:22
Yeah, pipeline sales come late. The buyer is hitting that pipeline so much later than it used to. So we have to really see indicators and across all the channels, and we have the tools now, we can pull all that together, right? But yes, so true later in the process, yes, in the journey.
Kerry Guard 8:46
How do you define a minimum viable message so a team can stop overanalyzing and start moving?
Laura McAliley 8:56
I laugh because I do this, or you do this, I'm sure, like, we just got to move on at some point. You know, I think when I think that becomes a lot easier when your foundation is right. So we're gonna go back to the foundation when you have clear messaging pillars, and you have a clear mission, vision, product positioning, all of that is in place. And you know, your ICP, then all those sub messages become much clearer. We're also working more on I'm working more on content pillars than I am on specific campaign topics. So one topic gets a blog, a LinkedIn article, a social post, polls, and emails. So once you have that foundation of the message set, then it's much easier to get to that minimum viable message that you can send out. It's it goes a lot faster. So, again, building that foundation makes everything so much easier.
Kerry Guard 10:00
Yeah, I will say I sort of had a come-to-Jesus last year where I had to accept my positioning and messaging, where it was of like I just got to go and see if it does the thing, and it's not perfect. And I'm seeing a lot more people say similar things that I'm saying in terms of building a compound marketing motion and making sure that it's always on in an intentional way, and that you have that foundation and the positioning and messaging like I'm now feeling a little bit like I'm in an in an echo chamber, and other agencies are starting to say very similar things. But I had to have start saying something, because I'm finding that when my LinkedIn posts especially come back to solving that problem for founders in a way that aligns to what we do better than anybody else. I'm getting traction where I'm screaming at the algorithms last year trying every random act of content that you can think of to try and get any sort of engagement, from personal stories to rants to yelling at, you know, through the internet, at the world, and I'd get some pickup here and there, but it wasn't sustainable, and I'm now finding that traction, because I'm coming back to those pillars, coming back to that beat of The drum of what do we do better than anybody else, and what is the pain that my customers feel that this solves?
Laura McAliley 11:30
Yes, 100%. I'll tell you: for Pebble, my company, I'm doing the same thing. I started last year. I put up some messaging. Thought it was the MVP of messaging, and I'm in the process of getting ready to update it a little bit. I realized that it needs to be a little different. You know, when we talk about the messy middle and hasn't landed the same way that I wanted it to. So I'm going through a little bit of an update now. It holds for now, but I have to drink my own Kool-Aid, right? Yes, do the same thing we both do, right? And it's hard, it's hard to do the same thing you.
Kerry Guard 12:08
So you're in marketing, yeah.
Laura McAliley 12:10
And I think with search becoming so much more about not just engine algorithms, but AI algorithms, how do they see things? I saw a great report the other day about how every time you search for something in, I think it was Rand Fishkin and Spark Torah. I'm so glad he's back during his videos again, but every time you search for something in a different AI tool, you get different responses. So it's going to be a lot of work to make sure we know our brands show up consistently, and so our messaging has to be consistent, and it's going to be it has to be in places that aren't just your website. It's the reality we're in.
Kerry Guard 13:02
But your website's the foundation.
Laura McAliley 13:05
The foundation and everything drive back to it. Everything drives back to it. Yes, everything drives back to it.
Laura McAliley 13:15
You just have to be ready. That's why I'm big on the philosophy. If there's one thing I think a founder can do is pick three different message pillars, pick three different content ideas under those, and then use them across all your different channels. So use same message. Take a month. Use the same message, create multiple blog posts, create LinkedIn articles, create content, and all your channels with all the different parts of that one message, and see how that works. I think that being strategic about that and putting out variations on the same message is going to be really important for what search looks like. Super important. Yeah, yeah. Not a search expert, but that's kind of what I'm reading.
Kerry Guard 14:02
I said to a prospect client, we did an assessment for him just these last few weeks, and my main message to him over and over again was, you're going to sound like a broken record. You're going to feel like there's no way that people want to hear this dang message again, but they have to hear it in so many different ways, through so many different customer stories, through so many different tactics of how they get there. There are so many different ways to approach the same concept, like you're saying, and you are. You are the one saying it. You are going to feel like a broken record. That is the only way to show up consistently and really hammering home what you do better than anyone else.
Laura McAliley 14:45
Yeah, and if you think about let's go back to our ICPs, right? So that same message is going to resonate differently with your different ICPs. So you need to customize it for that. Then you probably have different service offerings, so it probably needs to change a little bit the. Depending on what service you're offering or what product you're offering. So there are a ton of ways to say it, but you need to think about everybody in your spectrum, across your audience, and that journey, because that message resonates differently across all of it.
Kerry Guard 15:14
And I will say it really depends on you as the founder. But you know, founders come from all walks of life, and you can't assume that whoever you're marketing to is the same as you are or were or your journey. And so if you're telling personal stories that you want people to relate to, and they can't, because it was never part of their journey, you're going to lose people, right? I feel like we got I would love your opinion on this. I'm going off script right now. This, I'm going off script right now. This is a tangent. It's gonna be great. Let's go. I was told last year, and this was part, part of my I think, where I got, I don't want to say bad advice. I think it can work for founder-led stuff. But I think there is a turn in the tide where personal branding doesn't necessarily mean that you're always being personal like that. Content, for me, did vibe really well, and I did get a ton of engagement from it, but I never got clients from it. I never got growth from it. I got a ton of likes. But I think it's kind of swinging now. I think the algorithms are swinging to that consistency place of what do you do better than anybody else are am I crazy to sort of tell people that maybe this personal aspect of showing up and sharing our hobbies and things that are going on in our lives is not necessarily going to be doesn't mean you shouldn't you don't necessarily need to not do it. It's just not necessarily going to be the thing that moves the needle.
Laura McAliley 16:47
So I think, like we were just talking about branding, right? There's a place for everything. I think it's not going to bring in leads necessarily, but when people start to research your company, and they look at you, and they see a personal side. It makes you human. So there's always that balance between human and not. I definitely don't think it should be a core part of content, especially if you're branding yourself as a founder, but I think making yourself look human every once in a while is okay. So if every post needs to bring in leads, then every post can't bring in leads, right? It's like an all-encompassing piece of it, is what I would say. So there's a time and place, it's part of it, but it's not, it's that it's, but it's up here, right? It's, I don't know, the funnel doesn't work like it used to, but it's that, it's that awareness piece of who you are and makes you human, which is important, we play to the algorithms all the time, but we still have to remember that founders are human and they're passionate. That's why we like to work with them, because they're passionate about what they do.
Kerry Guard 17:56
Yeah, and I think there's a balancing act to still being able to come back to what you do better than anybody else, to add that personal flair, and to tell that personal story, but how do you tie that back to what you do better than anybody else? I think that still needs to be, especially as you're building that funnel, right? If somebody knows, I feel like people have really gotten to know me, which I love, right? I live in Guernsey. I play tennis there, I play music, right? But I don't think people still understand what it is that I do.
Laura McAliley 18:25
Well, but that's been an ongoing trying to explain what we do when this world is very nebulous to a lot of people, but at the same time, I think that, as a founder, your Passion comes from not only loving what you do, but the life that you live because of that. And so there's probably, there's, there's things in your life that extend back to that. So share that. I think that's great. Just don't plan on it bringing in a bunch of leads. It's going to help get that, maybe get that sale into the pipeline. When somebody comes and researches you, and they're in that, that last stage of getting ready to have a sales conversation.
Kerry Guard 19:07
Yeah, it's a balancing act, for sure, and I'm just swinging the other way, and then I'll come back and build on it. Yeah, yeah. I love it. I love it. I could talk to you all day about this stuff. I'm gonna get back on track. So much fun.
Unknown Speaker 19:21
All right, we're getting back up. It's a real struggle, by the way.
Kerry Guard 19:25
Anyway, Back on Track, okay, we're moving from, if you all haven't figured out yet, but the track, the Back on Track piece, the track piece, is actually an awkward for think, ready, activate, calibrate, and keep on going. So we just did the think part of building that foundation being so important, of how you do that, in terms of positioning and messaging, and building that house. Let's talk about the ready piece, the getting the getting ready to activate piece. You talk about slowing down, speed up, just as I do. What is the one? Document or asset a founder must have in place before they spend their first $1,000 on ads.
Laura McAliley 20:06
Who I'm going to tell you, foundation, no, we at least need to. I'm going back to ICPs and messaging pillars, because without them, I don't, I mean, I go back to that foundation all the time. If you don't have that, then we can't write good ads. I also would add in there we need some data. So it's not just one we need. We need a messaging document, but we need a little bit of data, customer data, to back up everything.
Kerry Guard 20:43
Customer data, like what kind of customer data are you looking at?
Laura McAliley 20:47
Specifically, I want to prove that customers are actually the ICP, that there's a match there. It's important so that we know that our messaging is right. But with ads targeting, you know, we need to make sure we're targeting the right people, and so we need to have proven out a little bit of ICP before we dive in too much with more than $1,000.
Kerry Guard 21:10
Yes, that content pillar you're talking about is so key, and I think everything needs to drive back to it to be consistent. And I, I said, I said to this, to this client, who I did the assessment for. He was like, What's the quickest way to validate that? Like, this is the right messaging. And I was like, put it out there. Put it out there. But more, even better would be, you have a big network of people, pick up the phone, set up meetings, ask them. That doesn't sound very fast. I was like, it isn't. It isn't like, you'll get the most, you'll get the best feedback, and the quickest, the quickest way. It's not, it's qualitative versus quantitative, right? But I was like, there's no here.
Laura McAliley 22:03
I went. There's not, and I like so for that, I'm in the middle of a campaign we launched that we kind of, I came on and we launched this campaign that was partly getting ready, and the idea was already there, and I've kind of taken up the execution of it, and we're doing that. We've been testing it with friends, partners of the clients, and they like it, but we're not converting as much as we thought. And I think there's something that's not resonating. So we're in the process of updating and changing. And you know what? We haven't gone super broad with it. We haven't done much more than some personal outreach and organic social, so we can test it, see how it goes, and then we can change it. That's okay. You know, the days of like everything being set in stone, and you can't change because it takes a developer three hours to change what's on your website. Those days are gone. So we want to always put out the best thing we have. But you can iterate. We can iterate live, and that's okay.
Kerry Guard 22:57
Fast. Yes, so fast. I was talking to a good friend of mine, Chris Salazar. Shout-out to Chris, who's also going to be on the podcast later this month or early next month. Oh my gosh, it's almost February. What just happened? Anyway? Chris was telling me about how he's working with these really brilliant young right out of MIT folks in a startup. And he was like, well, we need a new website. And so here's some of the positioning and messaging. Here's what I'm thinking about, what it needs to say, and literally overnight, using versal and and, and was it, I think it was, may have been clawed. They basically knocked up a website, full blown website, overnight, like this is where we're headed, folks. So I agree. I produce pages all the time within a day, and I get it up to see what kind of traction. I launched a page for a client in October. It was, it was a pillar page around a very specific keyword that drives a lot of their business. And that page on its own bumped us from like, point 2% visibility in SEO to now 14%.
Kerry Guard 24:13
That's amazing. Right now, I'm like, pillar pages. I gotta get more pillar pieces out. Yes, I can do well.
Laura McAliley 24:19
I did an event page in 30 minutes the other day in HubSpot. I mean, which has been a thing you could do for a long time, but, you know, it's so easy to get things up now, it's making sure that the content you're putting on them is right, and testing it.
Kerry Guard 24:33
Hi, I just noticed that we got a question from or a comment from Margie Agan, and I just wanted to call it out, because I love Margie. She says, "I think you know your positioning is landing or not when you ask customers how they would describe what you do to a colleague at a different company, and how they describe you when you're not in the room is eye-opening."
Laura McAliley 24:55
Oh, yes, love that. Yeah, that's that's a good one. Yeah, yes.
Kerry Guard 25:02
Okay, we're still in the ready section here when deciding between hiring a full-time marketer versus an agency, right? So we're sort of in the fractional piece of it, of like we sort of have two roads to either help our clients build the internal team or bring in partners. What does the pros and cons list look like for a company, like, small, right? Two to 4 million? Do they need to build an internal team?
Laura McAliley 25:31
I don't. I don't think so. It's going to cost so much money. We lost Kerry again, but I'm going to keep going, even though she can't hear me. I think that when you're at that space, hiring full-time staff takes so much budget that it takes away from the tactical execution budget. And so bringing in a fractional, and I'm just kept, I just kept going, Kerry, I said, bringing in a fractional at that level, don't, don't wait, don't spend that much budget on full-time staff. You need more money for execution. It's going to be hard to find anyway. So bring in fractional partners, agencies. I bring in a whole bunch of people when I come, most fractionals do, and then we can execute and have more budget to actually go get ads, do better content, and do more. I don't, most of the time, you don't need full-time staff at that point. And we want specialists. And so if you hire a specialist in every channel, that'd be really, it's just gets really expensive overhead.
Kerry Guard 26:38
Yeah, it adds up. Yeah, it's a balancing act of, like, who you bring out. I do think there are certain roles that could be full-time if you get enough content going, like a social media person or even a content person.
Laura McAliley 26:54
Yeah, but not a whole team, definitely, not, and really, at the senior level, you don't need a full-time person. There's you don't need a full-time person at that senior level yet.
Kerry Guard 27:13
Activation, Yep, totally agree. If a founder decides to DIY their foundation, what is the single biggest time waster they should avoid in the first 30 days?
Laura McAliley 27:29
Oh, trying to make a logo. Don't spend your time making a logo before you have everything else. Like so many times, it's like, Hey, look at my clip art logo I made. Which good for you? You have a vision, but a logo is so much more than what is in your head; it has to resonate with your audience. So, you know, I and trying to write all of your positioning without doing some market research, understanding Tam and Sam, understanding ICP, you can't get there. So most of the time, founders just don't know how far up to, like, they don't know the basis for what you see. I do market research reports that are like 12 pages with tons of sources to get started. That's mine. A founder doesn't have to read all of that, but it's there in the background to inform how we build everything else, the rest of the foundation.
Kerry Guard 28:27
Especially now with AI, right? So giving that to AI, yes, and saying this is the backbone of how I want to move forward is so helpful in terms of speed, if you want to do things a bit a bit quicker.
Laura McAliley 28:41
Yes, and, you know, I remember I have, I've been working on AI prompting to get to market research and customer or competitive research and ICPs that are as good as what we used to do when we took months to do them and spent hundreds of 1000s of dollars. So there's obviously still some limitations. I can't get private research. Surveys are really expensive still, and they take time, but I can get close with the TAM and Sam. I can understand how the market's shifting using AI now, before, when I couldn't, so founders have access to that information that they might have had access to until much later, after they were funded, now, which I think is an important thing, they have it. Let's use it, and let's, let's make that logo really work for you.
Kerry Guard 29:29
Yeah, and then get a creative person to design the logo for you. It makes such a difference. We designed our logo gazillion years ago, when we first started in 2011. I did it in PowerPoint, where I were. I think I did. I think I stepped it up with Photoshop. I was, I knew enough about Photoshop to be dangerous as a photographer, and so I did the MKG, and I like, drew an extra line for a double K, and they colored it. So I chose a font. I think I chose. Chose. Ubuntu, some silly font that I just like the look of, and like, off we went. But when I stepped up our brand a few years ago, and I got an actual designer, I said, I really still love the concept of it. It just needs to be cleaner, like, it just needs that refinement. And now, at like, we took it to Cyber Marketing Con. We sponsored Cyber Marketing Con a few years ago. And everybody was like, Oh, I've been seeing your logo everywhere. I love it, right? Like, it's, yeah, you, that designer just has that sense of balance and comfort.
Laura McAliley 30:32
Yes, yes. And I have, I'll tell you. So the common thing, I did a small project for a local friend of mine last ended last year, and he and I were trying to come up with a logo for his business in Canva. And it was fine. It just wasn't quite right. And so I went to my designer and said, this is kind of, here are photos for inspiration. This is kind of what we're thinking. It's just not there. And he took that and made it gorgeous. It's beautiful, but it just needed. I got it so far. He didn't have to go do all the concepting because we had done all that strategy and concepting, but he could take it and make it so much better. Yes, I love AI for a whole lot of things. I'm not there with the design and video, the same as everybody else. Yeah, I'm not there yet with it.
Kerry Guard 31:21
Yeah, I have to say the most beautiful logos are the simplest, which is actually the hardest thing. It's so hard. It's so hard down into a few shapes.
Laura McAliley 31:33
It is very hard, and and, and talking about it needs to be recognizable when it's small, or it's like.
Kerry Guard 31:43
Yeah, that's true.
Unknown Speaker 31:45
Oh, the conversations about logos are always fun.
Kerry Guard 31:50
It's so funny how we always have them too. It's inevitably we end up talking about the logo with a client. Yes, let's talk about activation and what red flags sign that a team has jumped to activate before they were actually ready. Client, clients, founders, love to jump to the tactics. I find. Are you seeing that?
Laura McAliley 32:12
Because, yes, that's always been the case. And I think that's because it feels like the thing that's going to bring in leads, which is totally justifiable. That is a completely understandable, but I mean, I'm sure you've had this conversation. Hey, I've been sending emails and posting on social, and it's not working. I'm not getting anything. Well, then it's, your message is probably off. We need to fix that. It's not resonating. We need to fix that. Where's your foundation? Who are you targeting? Are you talking to the right audiences and the right industries, right? So I think, I think that's the big mistake. I go back to that foundation, which is why you have the order for track that you have. You have to have the foundation, or else you don't know what you're what you're actually trying to accomplish and what you really need to say storytelling. It's the art of storytelling, right?
Everything needs you're telling your story everywhere, yep,but it's often my emails aren't working, and my social is not working. You've probably heard the same thing.
Kerry Guard 33:23
It is, it is, I do find. To their credit, yeah, yeah, I've been running into that too in terms of tactics. I will, I will say to their credit, I do say the founders that I've worked with do seem to really have a handle on their audience. I don't know if you ever found I don't. I didn't. It's not that nerd of talking to the wrong people. It's just they're not talking to the pain of that person. Are you finding the same thing? Or do you find that sometimes the audience is off?
Laura McAliley 33:56
I think sometimes I see both. I think sometimes the audience is off, or it's not, they're not segmented enough, so they know they're talking to the VP of Operations, but they don't realize that the VP of Operations in one vertical is needs a different message than in another vertical. So everything is the same. And I feel like that's a you know that it's yes, generally we know we sell to the VP of operations or the VP of marketing, or, please don't tell me you sell to the CIO, because very few people actually sell CIO, but they'll tell you, this is who I'm selling to, and they'll talk generally to that, but they won't really get to the pain points in those proof points we all know, because proof points are super important too, right? Go back and say one of the documents you need to have is proof points. But anyway, they're not proving why they solve that problem for that specific industry. Sorry, that was a rambling answer.
Kerry Guard 35:01
No, no, no, that's That's exactly right. I've been in, I think that's what's so awesome about bringing different marketing leaders on who have different perspectives and different engagement with clients, is they have a different experience. And so in my experience, I find that clients generally know who their ideal customer is, and who they're selling to is. But to your point, such a good one. There is that pay that needs to happen. And then when you're talking about more of an enterprise customer that you're getting after, then there's the ABM approach to of like, well, yes, this is a person you who you want to sell to and who you want to use your product, but actually they have to go convince, like, a whole host of other people, and so how are we going to do that? Yes, another challenge that sometimes is a blind spot.
Laura McAliley 35:47
Understanding what kind of budgets they hold at the enterprise level, understanding what kind of budgets your person in your position holds, and what they have the ability to purchase, sometimes you can get in that way, but you have to understand that role.
Kerry Guard 36:01
Yeah, yeah. When testing a new channel, how many weeks of clean data do you require before making a pivot?
Laura McAliley 36:15
Oh, I like to have, I like to have a quarter, at least, right, at least. Sometimes people want to move faster than that, but I like to have a quarter, especially if you're firing up. I don't know, I see this a lot. I'm firing up profiles that have been quiet for a while or inconsistent, or we're creating new ones. Especially if you're in that super early getting started or restarting phase, you need to give it at least a quarter of consistent.
Kerry Guard 36:42
Yeah, yeah. And even then, it's not always, you know, going back to the foundation, right? It's not always the channel. There are just some channels you need to be on. So if they're not working, trying to iterate, which will be the next calibrate, right? Will be the next section, but I do think that sometimes we don't give things enough time, but we also don't try enough things to make sure that it is not the thing. Chances are it's not the channel. It's how you're using the channel, or what your messaging is in the channel. We actually just had this conversation. We were talking about Google Ads for one of my clients. And I was like, I know, like, it's sporadic in what's working, but I know that there is enough search volume that this should be this. There should be a higher return on ad spend than there is. There is a positive return on ad spend, but I know that there's more here. And you're like, it's probably the messaging. I'm like, you're probably best, yeah.
Laura McAliley 37:44
And I think what your expectations of channels are right are, are you if right? So if you're doing organic LinkedIn, then we just need to see some impressions and engagement. You're not always going to get conversions right? You will, but not always. Now, boosted paid social is different, right? That's more of a call to action, but it depends on what the message is and what your call to actions are. So I think you have to also define what you're expecting from each channel, and there's a balance between spreading yourself too thin, especially when you're in these earlier seeds, you know, to 5 million. You know, like you don't have the resources to do 12 channels and all the things we need to pick three, do them well, and then add as growth comes, right? So what's the low-hanging fruit? Where can we start? Where what's going to take the most time to get going? You know, can we do some cold email outreach and some SEO at the same time with some organic social so that we're starting to build that brand awareness, but we have some like immediate get some leads coming in, but we're also building now this the foundation for the website and for search visibility across all the different places. We need to be a little bit better. So I think it depends on the company, but you need to be really thoughtful about what your mix is when you start out, and what you expect.
Kerry Guard 39:21
What would you say from a foundational standpoint? What would you say if you could only launch, and I know every client would be a little bit different, but I do think there's generally probably two to three standard channels that have to be in place to have a strong foundation. What would you say those? What are those are those are, in your opinion and your experience?
Laura McAliley 39:43
So in the B to B technical space that we're talking about, I think I'm usually an SEO needs to come early, because we need to build content SEO, I think, that helps build all that content out so that we have ability to do other things on their channel. Channels. I like organic social to build some just a little bit momentum and be present. I think that comes from the human side of things. And then I do like, I like cold email right now and nurturing email. So I think you need to have email across the whole journey. As soon as you get somebody, you need to be touching them with email. I know a lot of people say no to email, but I don't know. I've seen, I've seen the right type of email work more recently.
Kerry Guard 40:32
it was there's a shift, yeah, shift, for sure.
Laura McAliley 40:36
How it's not big design emails, yes, and it is not big designed emails, it is not heavy graphics, it's three lines that are really powerful, yeah. And I do also believe in some working with sales teams and some targeted, like inbox outreach that's personal, and not like I'm not for the inbox automation, that everybody got the same message, and that kind of thing. But I think empowering sales is the other thing, with the ability to go out and do some very targeted outreach and provide them with messaging so that it stays on track. So there's kind of the four things that I'm I think are the earliest stage. Yeah, now I love newsletters and Substack and all that, but give it some time, it could come. Yeah, later.
Kerry Guard 41:32
Yeah, once you get this going. Because what I SEO and content definitely are fuel to the social fire. And I do believe that if you're going to do cold outreach, you tell me. I believe that, from a customer journey perspective, that validation is happening and it's key. So they'll see a cool email come in, and they'll go check that the website's legit and that what you're saying in the email is showing up on the website.
Laura McAliley 41:59
Yes, and on your social, when they do a search and Google or Gemini or whatever, it all needs to come back. And so I think back to the foundation and content that spans all over the place. Your pillar pages, the SEO, background SEO, and content are so closely tied. You can't not have that right now.
Kerry Guard 42:29
I still feel that I know you do. All right, let's move let's move into the next two sections so that we can wrap this up with a pretty bow for folks in terms of calibrate, what are the three columns on your weekly plus spreadsheet that every founder should look at, and everything else is just noise. You're saying this is working or not working? What are those leading indicators? What is the what are the goals?
Laura McAliley 42:58
So engagement? How are we measuring engagement, right? What are we are we seeing some kind of engagement? Are we seeing, I do think website traffic still, if we're seeing big spikes, we need to see it go up just so early on and of I mean, leads are a thing but, and they're like the most important thing, but really, I'm tracking engagement. I'm tracking people coming to the website or increases in visits to other properties. So is, are we got more LinkedIn followers? Are people really engaged? I don't. I'm not as worried about views or impressions. I think they're some indicator of more people are going to come. They're they're important, but really, it's if we don't have people engaging with what we're doing, then we're not we're not making strides. We're not reaching the right people, because they're not going to engage with us if they don't resonate with the message.
Kerry Guard 44:06
Yeah, I like through rates. Through rates are fun, so yeah, I look at impressions, but only because I want to know our what's our click-through rate in relation to the industry, and are people more you know that, and how's that tracking and trending? That's why I love a good scorecard, because you can see that trending over time, like, yeah, are things going up into the right or are we starting to see some diminishing returns terms of our messaging and, or the spend of a channel, or whatever? I'm a big fan, yeah. Through Rate.
Kerry Guard 44:40
Yeah. I think those are, I mean, obviously, clients want leads, and they want pipeline, but those are really good leading indicators. When you start getting a program up, like, are we headed in the right direction? And then we can iterate towards giving people more the right content to move them through the funnel, for sure. Yeah, all right. Once the foundation is set, what is the signal that it's finally time to pour gas on the fire? Like, alright, we got a thing. Time to go.
Laura McAliley 45:09
Let's go. Well, I mean, I think, I think the big, if we can, when we're building, we're getting started and we're building, can we see that customer, all the way through the all the way through the the system, through the journey. If we can't, if we can't see that, then I think we you can't pour money on it, because you don't know where it's going. And I know a lot of companies are at a point where they have all that in place, but when you're really working with the earlier founders, or you're working with companies that haven't had a fully functioning marketing in place, then they don't have that. And you need it. It's, you have to have it. And then we test, right? So give it a quarter, give it six months. What's working? Where are we seeing those through? Rates happen, and now we know where to start putting a little bit more money. But it's, it's gradual over time, like, I don't want you to come and tell me, I'm not going to say you've been spending $3,000 a month on marketing. So now you need to spend $100,000 on marketing, right? You can't do it that way. We've got to, it's a slow build. We've got to build over time. And so once we have everything in place and we can see, we can see it and it's visible. Now we start investing more.
Kerry Guard 46:25
Client that's algorithms. Algorithms hate, yeah, algorithms hate a lot of change, even if it means more money. So many times, we have had clients show up with a ton of money and say, just spend it. And we're like, this is a terrible idea. We are going to rock the algorithms. This money is going to go nowhere. It's going to go back into all these learning phases. Can we just move it up little by little? But they get to the end of the year, and they go, we got to spend our budget.
Kerry Guard 46:54
Okay? Six months ago.three six months ago. Plan it accordingly with your budget. Spend it slow, slowly but surely.
Laura McAliley 47:01
Yeah, yeah. Quarterly budget reviews, yeah.
Kerry Guard 47:03
for sure. And and not going last question, yeah.
Laura McAliley 47:07
Okay, I was just gonna say not going in with any kind of a budget. I think can be just as bad anyway, yes, because you don't know what you're spending. Yeah, you're having to decide to spend the money every time, and it just takes a lot of time, so it slows things down.
Kerry Guard 47:23
Quarterly, budget, room, upgrade, yep, the year or month before the beginning of the year, and then we review that monthly and quarterly to make sure we're on target. Totally. Yes, yes. Last question, I know we could talk all day, but last question, how do you prevent we're so in this right now? This is happening everywhere. How do you prevent shiny object syndrome from creeping back into in once a company starts seeing initial success?
Laura McAliley 47:51
No, my answer is, does it? Does it go with our foundation?
Kerry Guard 47:55
Does it go with our foundation? Oh, yeah, they do know.
Laura McAliley 48:00
Tell me how your audience is in that shiny thing, like, is your audience there? How are we connecting with them? You know? I mean, I'm open, and I think you always need to leave. I love shiny things. My husband is so sick of me talking about AI, because I'm so loving what it's doing to marketing, just like when we saw search come in play, you know, more than 15 years ago, but and we need room for experimentation and new things. And sometimes new things and shiny objects are okay. But if you can't sit down and say, Hey, this new social platform that all the kids are on is where I want to be, but you sell to a middle-aged, you know, 30-plus age market and enterprise business, why are we going to spend our time there? Like, time is precious. Why are we going to spend our time there? So usually I start asking a lot of questions, and we can get to whether it works or not pretty quickly.
Kerry Guard 48:55
I have clients where I let them throw ideas at me, and I go, I love that. I'll take that into consideration. And then I come back to them, like, three months later, and I say, Okay, we were talking about this thing. We now have a budget for it. Is this still something, you know, pursue? And they, chances are, they go, actually, I don't think it's a good idea anymore, like, so kind of letting, like, that idea, yeah, totally take it into consideration. We don't have a budget just yet, but when we do, I'll bring it back to you. And inevitably, they feel like, actually, we're good where we are, like, it's cool, yeah, I love chatting with you, Laura. I know all day, all day, and I want to honor your time, because we are at a time. I know folks where I'm sad too. Laura, if a founder is listening right now and they feel like they're spinning their wheels. What is the one single actionable step they can do in the next 24 hours to get their marketing back on track?
Laura McAliley 49:47
Analyze who your audience is. Yeah, call me. I'm here. Happy to have happy to have a conversation. I'll always have a conversation with the founder. I think I love it. So anybody who wants to call, we can have a strategy session. For 30 minutes. I'm happy to do that, but make sure you know who your actual audience is, and make sure you're telling them how you solve their problem better than anybody else.
Kerry Guard 50:10
Like a broken record, but hopefully write it through.
Laura McAliley 50:13
But isn't that what we said? Branding gotta sound like a broken record, right?
Kerry Guard 50:17
It's true. It's true. Laura, thank you so much for keeping it real. Where can people find that they want to DM you? To DM you, they want to find you. Go to your website. Where? Where's the best.
Laura McAliley 50:26
pebbledashmarketing.com is the website, or you can hit me up on LinkedIn.
Kerry Guard 50:30
Links will be in the comments. Thanks for tuning in. Remember, there are no silver bullets, only the tracks you build. This episode is brought to you by MKG Marketing, helping you navigate the growth valley with strategy, clarity, and execution. I'm Kerry Guard, and see you next time. Laura, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I love this.
