Raising The Next Generation of Marketers

Transcript

Opening

Hello, I’m Kerry Guard, and welcome to Tea Time with Tech Marketing Leaders.

Welcome back to season 11!

I hope you've enjoyed this collection of guests so far. It's one of my favorite line-ups, especially that triple whammy at the beginning with Dani Woolf, Kaya Adams, and Chris Spellman, all amazing security markers which are so passionate about the industry and the part they play in regards to the missions that their companies are going after. If you haven't heard any of those episodes, skip back and check them out.

In this episode, I got to hang out with Jada Holst. I usually try and have a clear agenda for most of my episodes. But for Jada, we just got to shoot the shit, and in doing so, we landed on some really important topics around hiring, The Great Resignation and what we all can do about it. There are some clear challenges in the marketing industry, and it will take all of us to figure them out. It was cool to talk to somebody who feels the same way I do regarding that and somebody who had some great ideas on where we can start. It was such a great conversation!

Jada Holst is a marketing manager at an ISVP focused on supporting higher ed nonprofits and other similar industries to succeed in their missions. Her background includes cybersecurity and B2B startups with experience in the demand channel field and customer marketing. It’s so good to meet you, Jada. I hope you feel like you get to know her too.

Let's take a listen.

Conversation

Kerry Guard: Hello, Jada. Thank you for joining me on Tea Time.

Jada Holst: Hello, thanks for having me.

Kerry Guard: Do you have any tea today?

Jada Holst: All the tea girl. I'm stoked to be here. Thank you for having me.

Kerry Guard: I'm excited to have you. We're going to have a great conversation today. This is probably the best question to kick off this conversation. I asked this to everybody, but it will fit perfectly into our broader scope. Let's kick off with you. What's your story, Jada? What do you do? How did you get there?

Jada Holst: Let me start by saying we're still living in the virtual remote work world. I have my little Corgi Hazel close. If you hear her in the background, I apologize. It's just her saying hi. She likes to steal the spotlight. But to get back to your original question, Kerry, how did I get here? Do you want the long answer or the short answer?

Kerry Guard: I think we'd use a long answer today. That's where our conversation will sit, so I think it fits the bill.

Jada Holst: I can ramble a little bit. But I think it's all good stuff, especially with this topic, about why marketing is such a stellar career. And why we want to make sure that we can educate as many people about this opportunity as possible.

Kerry Guard: And the headline of the podcast

Jada Holst: We would like to stick to the theme.

Kerry Guard: Why is marketing a stellar career opportunity? What's your path here, Jada? How'd you get there?

Jada Holst: I grew up on a farm in the midwest of America. We didn't have a lot of exposure to the tech realm and everything possible from a marketing or sales standpoint. A lot of what I was exposed to growing up was very traditional careers. I thought I wanted to be a lawyer, but I was told that I should be a lawyer. My dad thinks I'm good at arguing; he's probably not wrong. But as I went to college, I had a political science degree and a history degree because I thought I wanted to be a lawyer. I pursued that, and I just realized that something was missing. I'm a good writer, and I can put together those good arguments, if you will, really knowing the audience and how to position things and sell it. But I was missing that human element, and that's not to say that the legal profession isn't human. It felt cold to me, and I just knew something was off. So after an internship in college, I took the legal route and realized it wasn't for me.

After college, I felt a little bit lost. I think that's a common feeling that we don't do. It's such a crazy shift when you go from college too, quote-unquote, the real world. I've tried with any friend that I have in that stage of life to prep them for marketing or not because it's a big change. You'll get used to it, and eventually, you'll learn to love it. I went and just got a job that paid pretty well. After college, I applied to anything and everything. I was applying to be a receptionist at a clinic, and I applied to be a sales coordinator. It was very much across the board, just because I had a lot of interests and I didn't know how to piece them together. The best offer from a financial standpoint came from the sales coordinator position, and as a recent grad, you're going to jump on that. We're talking here about what's so great about the sales and marketing profession. You stand to make a very comfortable living.

I didn't know anything about marketing. I was focused on the sales side but not directly selling. As the company needed some random projects done, I learned more about what was available in the marketing realm. They had an agency helping do some of the website content and things that I was tasked to work with them, and that's where I discovered this wonderful profession that puts together so many of my interests. I'm good at speaking and maintaining relationships, but I'm also good at writing. Part of me loves systems and technology. It was where this magical career had been hiding, and I have been fortunate enough to work with some great companies, small and large. Everyone has taught me something different. Today, I'm back at an ISVP that works directly with Salesforce and helps to build out their marketing department. So that is the end there, the very condensed version of my career path, but that's how I got here. It was a happy accident. But trust me, I'm very happy that the accident happened.

Kerry Guard: I have a very different but similar story. When it happened to me, I was in the same boat regarding applying to anything and everything to get to New York. I don't care where I work. I work at a diner if I have to; I just want to be in New York City. It happens to land in marketing as well. I didn't have quite the journey you did to figure out what I didn't want, and I loved what you said about the human element, and it’s feeling cold and not human enough. Did you realize that when you were doing the internship, did the internship just not feel good? Couldn't you quite put your finger on it at the time?

Jada Holst: I knew that I was missing something. It didn't help that legal students came in to talk to us, saying, Hey, pick something else. I'm not here to shy away from driving for whatever they're destined for. But it was almost like that; I don't know. If you will, a moment from above, where it was like, Okay, something here is telling me that this just isn't the right path for me and to explore to see what else is out there. I'm sure what you said about wanting to get to New York, and you'd be willing to do anything to be there. It can be very uncomfortable to take that step back and explore, like, what am I interested in? Or what am I not interested in? I think many marketers err on the side of that type A. They're very much planners, even though they're creative. We're big-time planners. When your plan doesn't work, it can be a little overwhelming.

Especially those in their early 20s, and that's not to say that any age group can't get into marketing because so many different skill sets are needed. You can be incredibly analytical, and there's a role for you. There can be somebody who's the best events planner in the world, and there's a role for you. If all you ever do is right, you have a role. I don't want to say it's a misconception about marketing, but it's something that we need to get out there. It encompasses many different skills, and many people can be good at this. I'm talking about my post-graduation experience because it wasn't that long ago, about five or six years ago. I could also see someone who's maybe at a turning point in their career looking for something new and challenging and exciting, and marketing could be the fit for them.

Kerry Guard: I feel like the way marketing is exploding. Marketing can be fit for anyone. Maybe, I'm going out on a limb on that, but I feel like marketing is easy to teach, and nobody can learn it. I love what you're saying about your interest. What do you want to do? What don't you want to do? You probably have a really good long list of what you don't want to do and that you could find a job in marketing that suits those skill sets.

Jada Holst: It goes back to the education piece. I did have formal education for four years at the University of Iowa- Go Hawks. Marketing is positioned from an educational standpoint; if you will, formal or informal, to your point about anybody could learn it. The problem with formal education is very theoretical, and you could argue the problem with a lot of different career paths. With marketing, you need to know how to communicate, and even that can be taught. It's keeping up with the changes in the industry, which is their constant. The job market is rapidly changing, and that's not where my skill set lies. I have friends in the HR and the recruiting realm, and it's what they say in the candidate's world.

Kerry Guard: I want to take a step back here because I love what you were talking about in terms of education. My kids are still too young. We're not talking college yet. Maybe I need to start, and I don't know. That was always the path. I was going to college, and there was no question; there was no pushback. I didn't have a choice. I always like to have an argument, which never goes down well, but that's the fun of arguing. I wanted to be a photographer. I went to school for photography in hindsight, and I made the argument up, down, left and right after college. If I wanted to be a photographer, the last thing I should have done was go to college. Being theoretical, I learned how to take a great picture. But what I didn't learn was how to run a business, get new clients, and market myself. When you want to be a photographer, it's not just about going out there and taking great pictures; you're running a business at the same time, and they don't teach you. I don't think anybody teaches you how to run a business in any education. I don't know what the alternative is because I don't think you can launch into working after high school, but I feel like there's got to be a better way than college all the time.

Jada Holst: There are so many different ways we could take that conversation, and a lot of what you said resonated with me. College was only the ever option ever, and that was more so because I thought I wanted to be a lawyer. You have to go to college for that. But to your point, I've thought so many times as I'm sitting in a QBR or putting together something new for the MarTech stack or marketing automation. Nobody teaches this anywhere, and that's also part of the problem.

Once you're in marketing, we keep things close to the chest because everybody thinks they have the magic sauce or the secret sauce. And if they give it away, then someone else will do it better than them. But the conversation that I've tried to foster, especially with my female counterparts, and I've worked with a few different organizations at this point in life, and I've been very fortunate enough to maintain those relationships. Even after I've left, we have to see each other when building each other up. This isn't to say that we shouldn't have those relationships with male counterparts are non-binary counterparts. But the idea, as females, we're still in a workspace that doesn't quite value us the same way as our male counterparts. We need to have those conversations about what you are doing, whether your marketing programs, what you see working, conversations with your boss and how much are you making. I used to think that conversation was so taboo, and I was very fortunate last summer to have a conversation with someone a bit more senior who was honest with me about her salary. I just realized that I wasn't being compensated fairly. I've had very similar conversations where folks have said that same thing to me: wow, why aren't we talking about this? Because I'm learning so much about what I deserve, and that's just one piece of it.

We're not taught how to advocate for ourselves in the workplace and how we run that business. At the beginning of the podcast, I mentioned that I was raised on a farm. I'd seen the business from a very early age. Did I learn how to use a CRM? Did I learn how to use my Soft Skills? Probably not. The task that marketers have to handle is how do we enable and encourage the next quote-unquote generation of marketers to join us. And that doesn't mean the early 20s, it means anybody interested. I have a few ideas on how we could do that, but I'd be curious to hear you say, Kerry.

Kerry Guard: I think we have to do it because we've left a generation behind and that we all sort of went after people who already have experience. And so we left it to the big agencies to figure it out. They are the big brands to figure out how to bring on people who don't know anything and then train them. Unfortunately, however, this generation is their zero bullshit if you want to cut it. They know what they want and what they don't want. They know that work-life balance is key to their happiness and success. And churn and burn is not for them. The agencies who are not changing their culture can even bring in the fresh assistant people to learn the skills because they don't want to be there. Smaller companies who have only been looking at experts for so long have left that group out, and we have a gap. Now, we have a big gap, we have more jobs, and we have people, and it's a big problem.

Jada Holst: No. And I think you're speaking to like what we're seeing, generally across the job market today. And that probably goes back to what you were saying about feeling that pressure that the only option was to go to college, and that's not for everyone. Whether it’s maybe a formal education isn't for them and is out of reach.

There are so many reasons why it doesn't make sense to people. But that doesn't mean that you can't rock this career just because you don't have that education. There's so much marketing, and sales that I don't think can be taught. Can you be taught to be a people person? Maybe, but is it better if it comes naturally. Some of the best salespeople I've ever worked with never went to college, and I know we're talking about marketing, but they go hand in hand. The trouble with marketing now is everybody I have worked with has a college degree. It certainly hinders getting folks into the door, but what you said about the agency culture is not appealing anymore. It's so true, and one thing too, that I'll say that I've never worked for an agency. I've worked with agencies, some that were fabulous, some that were maybe not so fabulous. Part of that problem is that they're too focused aside from the cultural elements you talked about. You have a very specific niche, and that's all you do. And that takes away from the beauty of marketing, which is so vast. That's why I like working in smaller companies. I like seeing them grow, but I like to have my hand and a lot of different elements. That's what keeps me excited and challenged. There are so many ways that different people, backgrounds, skill sets, and ages could find a career. Maybe you're technical, and maybe you're a great project manager; there's a role for you in marketing. If you're a great writer, creative, or thought aesthetic, for the record, I do not, and I'm amazed by anyone who does. There is a spot for you in marketing. And I think it's breaking down those barriers to say, hey, let's maybe look past this mandatory college education piece which I think the tech world is moving towards, but perhaps not quick enough to your point. If we don't get rid of that idea, we will lose a generation. You do not need a college degree to do marketing at all. I'm certainly not hating on my experience. College taught me some great writing pieces and how to make those arguments. Could I have learned that not in college? Yes. The one thing that college did that got me ready for my career is that this may be a shock. But I've said this before, and I stand by it is I was in a sorority. And that taught me so much about networking, talking to somebody new, presenting yourself, and maintaining your brand. And for folks who maybe didn't experience that, I think it can sound very fake, for lack of a better word. But that's not what it was, and it was how you make sure that you're always representing the best version of yourself. I think that's what we're all trying to do, or at least what we should be trying to do in the professional world and personal.

Kerry Guard: I love that. I think that's important and something that you can cultivate. Networking is hard!

Jada Holst: It's uncomfortable. I'm like a self-proclaimed person, and I feel like I could talk to a wall, for better or worse. It's getting more uncomfortable, and I hate to say this because I believe that you never know what opportunities lie out there. And you reached out to me on LinkedIn, and I'm so glad that you did. But I'm just getting bombarded. It speaks to folks who are a little bit further along in their marketing career, and you almost start to shy away from networking because you don't know what am I going to be sold. This conversation is making me a question. Am I missing someone who could be reaching out for some career advice or has a way that we could collaborate? COVID certainly didn't help the networking piece of it. Very limited options!

Kerry Guard: It became faceless too.

Jada Holst: This is very ironic because we're talking to each other on a podcast. And that's not to say that there aren't great things about what technology can do. I believe that you're in Europe, and I'm in Minnesota. We wouldn't normally be able to have this conversation, and here we are, having a great one.

You can still foster great relationships, even via the virtual world. But it gets harder, and some of it is lost to your point. I don't know how we fix the networking piece, and maybe that falls to us, more experienced marketers. We need to put our success aside to make sure that we're reaching out and enabling those younger in their careers as marketers.

Kerry Guard: We need to pull them up. Hiring is so hard, and it's a tough market out there. I think this happens with new business, too. We feel in marketing where the pipeline suddenly dries up or something goes haywire. Suddenly, new business is fast, so we dump a ton into broad awareness, like lead generation stuff. Got to sift through people who aren't ready for us or ready to talk to us or not the right fit, or there's all this stuff in the way of talking to the right people. The beauty of demand generation and the way we're now approaching marketing, which I'm going to go apply to recruiting because it's becoming more and more about the right people at the right time with the right message, and just being there and letting them know you're there so that when they have that aha moment of like, oh, my gosh, I do have this problem, and oh my gosh, who do you need that they start that research process. They know how to find you and start comparing, and I feel like now, with the job market, we got to do the same where we now need to almost to your point, Jada. Like personal branding.

We got to start reaching out to people and just starting a conversation. It's not trying to sell anything, and it's not even trying to hire them. The second, it's like, hey, we seem to have some things in common. Let's hang out and chat and then find those right people to have good conversations with and that you want to keep in touch with. You're not trying to network the world. It's not about a numbers game anymore, going on a tangent and a rant. It becomes a numbers game. You're on LinkedIn, looking at your followers or engagement and how many people you're getting in touch with. If we can just blow the air out of that, focus on the right people we want to have really good conversations with and hone those relationships, we can start bringing in the right clients that fit where we can help them and fit their needs. We can start bringing in the right people to work with us because they're excited about working with us. We've created this great relationship and bond, and it's so much more meaningful than just trying to reach out to everyone all the time and hope for the best.

Jada Holst: If you're talking to everyone, you're talking to no one. Everything that you're saying resonated with me, and I recently had a conversation with one of my marketer friends about exactly what you're talking about. It had to do with recruiting and more to do with dating if I'm being very honest. It's funny how I think too, and that's also something going back to work-life balance. What I've learned from marketing, I apply to my personal life and how to reach goals and get there. There are XX candidates out there, and only X numbers will convert to the next stage and X numbers are ready, and it whittles down very quickly. Getting the right message in front of the right person at the right time is critical. It goes back to how can we educate again, this new generation and that's not strictly the 20s. It's anybody interested. How do we educate the new generation about what's out there? And how do we enable them to make that change if it's a change or gets them their foot in the door for their first job? Within the marketing, and my wheels are turning, I'll be honest, you got me fired up about what I can do. I'm fairly early on in my career, but I've also still learned so much. I feel this like personal responsibility to help other people, at least be aware of what's there to help them get the ball rolling. Because like you said, going back to your photography career, so much of what you learned had not a lot to do with the practice of marketing itself or photography itself, but how to work that profession once you were there. There's such an opportunity for us to do that, Kerry.

Kerry Guard: I would have learned on the job; that was my whole point. If we could go back to almost, we're thinking about this for our company. We're setting up some goals in its very early stages regarding how we're thinking about it. We have nothing carved out in stone, but we could always go back to the idea of an apprenticeship.

Jada Holst: Yes, but paid.

Kerry Guard: Internships are too short and fleeting. They don't give people enough time to get in there and figure it out. They're not paid, which is no carbon. So yes, paid apprenticeships where you bring people in, to learn on the job in a really, almost educational space, rather than a professional, bridging that gap between profession and education.

Jada Holst: This goes back to what I was saying about we need to have open and honest conversations with our peers about what's working and what they've learned. MarTech is a great example. I won't name drop here, like what I use or who, but it's something that people keep us so close to the chest again. The technologies make it difficult to learn why we're going against exactly what the marketing principles are. Let's make information readily available. Let's be helpful and informative, and let's build trustworthy relationships. We're calling ourselves bu***** here, and I hope I can say that. And such an opportunity to bring those folks in and not do a TED Talk moment again. But what you said about apprenticeships and making sure that we kill away the unpaid internship piece of things.

One thing that grinds my gears is when you hear tech companies talking about how critical the DEI focus is, and it is, don't get me wrong. But again, they're limiting who they can bring in; whether our referral program is so strong, or you have to be in the office, or you have to have a college degree, then that is such a problem. We talk again, and then it's done if you have to know someone. I would like to think that we, the button seats, have completely died with COVID. But I don't think it has yet limited talent quickly, and it's a shame. So I'm hoping to see that shift as more companies continue to make those changes. Yeah, so all this to say, I would like to see it as companies shift. We're talking about this hopeful mindset shift, how we hire and educate, and how we get in front of the right candidates. We're also keeping that in mind, and how do we make this profession available to people that don't have the resources to be in an office in a big city or didn't have the resources to have that quote-unquote formal education. I don't know how to do that, or we haven't planned it yet. I don't think it's all that hard, like making this profession accessible and educating folks.

Kerry Guard: It's just the logistics. I don't know how to do it. We want to make sure that we're bringing in art because it will take the whole organization as much as leadership if we get it. I'm just saying I don't know how to do it, as the logistics. But that's easy.

Jada Holst: Yes.

Kerry Guard: It's getting started.

Jada Holst: I hear what you're saying about you want to make it a great experience for the person who's coming in as an apprentice, for lack of a better word. But you also want to make it a great experience for the folks in your company. I hear you there. For me, more personally, I was speaking to the fact of how can we shift our mindset as folks who are building teams to help the right. And I don't even know if the right candidate is the correct term because you might have a mechanic out there who has the best technical mind in the world and will be your marketing ops genius. They just need to be taught. Yes, it's good to talk to the right person and the right mindset, but it goes back to that education piece. And the problem awareness, if you will.

Kerry Guard: Our conversation is twofold because I love how organic this was. I want to summarize and give us a chance to have fewer thoughts here. The challenge is twofold. First, people don't even know they could get into marketing because formal education is their way, and they don't know their skill sets. And so I love what we're saying, Jada, of like, know what you don't want and what you want, write that down, look at your skillset. And then look at the grand scheme of marketing, which goes from having conversations to people talking about networking. Reach out on LinkedIn to people sitting in any marketing role, from marketing managers, within brands, to agencies doing specific SEO digital ads and copywriting websites. Start having conversations to figure out what you're resonating with. Ask people for a day in their life, what does it feel like? Start figuring out where you could find your footing and marketing. Because anybody, and to your point, data mechanic could find their foot in marketing if they had the right alignment in terms of skillset and professionals, not even skillset just how your brain sort of four or five sets.

Jada Holst: I love what you're saying because it resonates with my story of how I got here because I grew up on a farm. My dad's a farmer, and he has been his whole life. He didn't go to college and doesn't have a formal education, but he is one of the most intelligent people I know. I am 100% on board that your degree does not define your capabilities. And my father has so many skills in so many different areas, and it led my mind to understand not ever to count someone out just because they don't have that piece of paper. It's that life experience, and he could come in and run a company beautifully. He has his whole life. Maybe, he's not cut out for marketing, but he could be cut out for something else, and this isn't a push or a plug for my dad. He's happily self-employed. You never know, so don't count someone out. We have to do our job as professionals who have established themselves in their career to reach out that hand. I love what you're saying about encouraging people to find folks they want to have conversations with and get an idea of what the day in and out looks like as marketers. But again, the onus kind of falls on us to educate about the opportunities and why we love and things that make us crazy because that exists. If that's with any job, there's good and bad.

Kerry Guard: That was the second part of our conversation, two way street of encouraging people to get out there and figure out where they would like to go and what that could look like for them and in those conversations. On the flip side, we have also to extend that hand to say we're open to those conversations and find people we want to have these conversations with. We think you'd be great at this, and we also have to create the right programs to allow people to come to learn as they go. So set them up for success because this is an idea of an expert, and we want to look to people who will be able to set that stage of what people should strive for. We still need that 100% to figure out how to set those right programs up so people can learn from each other. Those three need to align.

Jada Holst: The timing is very urgent for many reasons. But I'll certainly say that I'm inspired. I want to walk away from this and figure out what I can do to reach out and give that handout to anyone interested.

Kerry Guard: Let's think about that for this, Jada. Maybe we can put our heads together.

Jada Holst: I like that this is headed.

Kerry Guard: I usually ask this question initially, but I'm going to ask it now because I'm wrapping up here. We're human and more than marketers, even though we've had quite the marketing journey ourselves. To get to know you a bit more, Jada. I have four questions for you, and the first one is about your current job and what you're doing. What's one challenge you're currently facing?

Jada Holst: I'm at a startup and growing 100% year over year. But I think all you have to say is a startup, and then you can just stop and understand what some of those challenges are. I will say I'm incredibly fortunate to work with folks who are not set in their ways. What do they say? Nothing kills progress more than the phrase we've always done it this way. We've got a very forward-thinking team, which is the only way you can survive as not only a startup but new products, etc. You have to be willing to make those changes. And what I had said earlier was that marketers liked their plan B. For someone interested in learning about marketing, you'll learn that you have to fail fast and often fail because that's the only way you're going to be able to change with the times and adapt quickly. It's the standard stuff. As we grow, what are the new processes to scale rapidly and effectively and the constant struggle with budget. Everybody wants and needs more of it, but there's only so much to go around.

Kerry Guard: It's always such a struggle, especially for startups, because they want to grow fast, but they also have to invest money, and they also don’t.

Jada Holst: I think that's where that creative lens comes in, what wins and how we can get scrappy in those other areas.

Kerry Guard: My last few questions for you, Jada. Have you picked up any new hobbies in the last two years?

Jada Holst: Yes, I bought a boat last spring. I'm in Minneapolis right now, so it's negative two. We're not boating today, but hopefully, we'll be boating in a couple of months.

Kerry Guard: If you could be with your team someday, it is important to gather when we can absolutely. What song would you want to be? What do you want to play while you are hanging out in person?

Jada Holst: Let's go with All My Favorite People by Maren Morris. It talks about being laid back and going with the flow. Marketers are definitely a little type A, but that's me as a person when we're together, like let's just relax and have a good time.

Kerry Guard: If you could travel anywhere in the world with no vaccination passes, PCR tests and masking, and all of the other things that are in our way of doing that easily, where would you go and why?

Jada Holst: Well, that's tough because I haven't been anywhere warm and a couple of years. Part of me is inclined to say Hawaii because I've been, and it's beautiful. But I'm also a history nerd, and I'd love to get to Germany because that's my ancestry, my heritage, and I'm hoping to do both in the near future. Cross your fingers for me, please.

Kerry Guard: Cross my fingers and toes and everything.

Jada Holst: All the help I can get.

Kerry Guard: Jada, this was awesome. Thank you so much for joining me.

Jada Holst: No, thank you, this conversation has been amazing. I feel very inspired, and I hope that whoever is listening feels the same.

Outro

That was my conversation with Jada Holst. Jada and I hang out now regularly monthly. We talk about where we are in terms of the hiring challenges, what we're doing about it, what solutions we're trying and what we've come up with. It's cool to connect regularly and put our brains together and come up with some great things. I'm looking forward to sharing with them in the future.

If you'd like to connect with Jada and learn more about her story, you can find her on LinkedIn. The link is in the show notes.

In the next episode, I chat with Naz Ekim. She's authentic and she tells it like it is. She has a lot to say when it comes to PR and how to find the right partner to make sure your company is doing PR. Stay on autoplay, and we'll take you there.

Thank you for tuning in to season 11!