The Holy Grail of Web Design and Development– Adam Aragon

Overview

Welcome to another enlightening episode of Tea Time with Tech Marketers! In today's episode, our host Kerry Guard engages in an insightful conversation with the esteemed Adam Aragon, Head of Web Development at Illumio, a leading cybersecurity company.

Adam shares his remarkable journey from unconventional beginnings to becoming a seasoned expert in scaling companies and web management, covering B2C, B2B, and B2E experiences. Together, they delve into the challenges of reaching the cybersecurity market, website evolution, remote work, and the intersection of marketing and web development.

Discover how Adam navigates the complex cybersecurity industry and the pivotal role of data-driven decision-making in ensuring optimal user experience.

Pour yourself a cup of tea and join us for a deep dive into the ever-evolving world of tech marketing with this episode – TTwTML – Adam Aragon!

--Transcript--

Kerry Guard [00:00:04]:
Hello. I'm Carrie Gard, and welcome to Tea Time with Tech Marketing Leaders. So excited to have you all. If you're here with us, say hello. We can't see you unless You let us know you're here and we are here for it and all of your questions. We can't wait to unpack those in a bit. Before we get there, a little bit about today. So today, I have Adam Aragon.

Kerry Guard [00:00:29]:
He's an expert in raising the bar and scaling companies involved with b to c, b to b, and b to e. He's seen it all, folks. He's seen it all from Fintech to SaaS and the world of user behavior, user experience, an user interface. There's a common thread here, folks, and it is about the user. I know we all like to think it's about us, so we are the center of the universe, but, Adam says differently, and I'm here for it. Adam has 20 years of web management and development experience along with 10 plus years of marketing, digital marketing, growth strategy, optimization, and marketing technology, having managed multiple brands globally for web strategies and growth experience. He's an end to end designer and developer. That is one of a it's fine, folks.

Kerry Guard [00:01:14]:
I can speak from experience. Finding people who can do both is hard to decide. So lean in and listen up because we're going to unpack it all. Adam, welcome to the show.

Adam Aragon [00:01:26]:
Thank you so much. 

Kerry Guard [00:01:35]:
It's super exciting to have you on. I could talk about Web Dev all day being not quite I'm I'm married to a web dev who has taught me all, not all he knows, a glimpse of what he knows, that I'm enough to be dangerous, that I understand HTML, can write enough to get me by, and then I sort of faked it till I made made it on the designer side, so I understand this balancing act. But for somebody who lives and breathes it every day, I am stoked for this conversation. Before we get there, Adam, tell us your story. What do you do and how did you get there?

Adam Aragon [00:02:17]:
Oh, boy. Let's see. Well, I I think as you mentioned, I've done development in web and tech for over 20 years. My 1st gig was actually, for the Department of Defense. So I worked for the military building the military relocation information network. And, that was literally, like, my 1st job out of school was just jumping right into that. I moved to Jacksonville, Florida. Lived near a military base.

Adam Aragon [00:02:42]:
Az. Worked for the military. Not not enlisted, just a employee of and, yeah, that that kinda kick started it. I loved it ever since then. I've just loved working in tech working with the web. I've done freelance work for years. I've worked for SEO agency. I've worked for several large corporations, including Anaplan, Carta, active campaign.

Adam Aragon [00:03:03]:
And now I am cybersecurity at Illumio, so I can add to my B2C, B2E, Etcetera, etcetera. Fintech, SaaS, and cybersecurity. So I think I'm touching on all the industries here.

Kerry Guard [00:03:15]:
All the industries that have beautifully complex audiences to say the least.

Adam Aragon [00:03:21]:
And I guess I enjoy that. I enjoy that Challenge in finding like how each one has unique, you know, needs in targeting and so forth. But yeah, aside from my development experience I've spent the last 10 years, working in marketing departments, marketing teams, learning digital and growth and demand gen marketing. And so now I am the head of SEO and web strategy at Illumio, cybersecurity company. And yeah, in a nutshell that's kinda how I rolled into here.

Kerry Guard [00:03:50]:
Rolled. I love that. Hi, Trevor. Good to see you. Thanks for jumping on with us. You too. Trevor get awarded. Trevor, you're gonna ask a few brilliant questions, and we're excited for those.

Kerry Guard [00:04:04]:
Just touching on your experience, Adam, because I feel like one, you've had this really unique journey of a) landing into the Department of Defense right out of the gate. That's their small feet.

Adam Aragon [00:04:18]:
It was daunting when you're barely out of school, you know.

Kerry Guard [00:04:21]:
Did you go after? Was this like, this is what I wanna do and I'm gonna work for the Department of Defense, go

Adam Aragon [00:04:31]:
of mine who had just gotten the job doing the same thing at a higher level and he said I I wanna bring you with me. And I said sure. And like I, you know, like I said, I'm a kid. I'm barely out of school. And they're like, Hey, you're in charge of, 8 other developers and streamlining this whole section and doing market research. And I just thrown into this super deep end, like, immediately.

Kerry Guard [00:04:54]:
Did you have your swimmies?

Adam Aragon [00:04:56]:
Well, I I'm here, so I survived.

Kerry Guard [00:05:00]:
That's fair. Let's talk about this lovely dichotomy you've had because I think all this is gonna play really nicely into our conversation. But you but this element of marketing and web development. It seems like you sort of normally, in typical tracks, you pick 1. You either go full on development and in deep with the product, or you become a marketer and you sort of leave the website behind and say, nice to know you. But you seem to have walked this beautiful path of both. How do you feel like in retrospect, because life is 2020. You look back on all of the things.

Kerry Guard [00:05:39]:
You know, how do you feel like you've been able to Balance this delicate line and stay half a foot kind of in both.

Adam Aragon [00:05:47]:
I was lucky enough, like I, you know, was Purely in a development style world just doing SEO and web dev and design, when I got hired by a tech company And was hired into the marketing department. And oftentimes like some, like a lot of companies run their websites where their website is run by engineering or IT. And they never touch marketing. Marketing gives them requests, but they like work somewhere else completely. And I was lucky enough to jump into a, you know, forward thinking company that, basically like had web just completely folded in with, like, I sat right next to brand and design. I sat right next to content on either side of me. And we all collaborated and worked for marketing roles. And so I was able to kind of start stoking in a lot of marketing, from that.

Adam Aragon [00:06:32]:
And, I did actually have a little background. I worked for about 2 years as a manager at a market research company, years before that, and, I also gave a talk at Sonoma State University for avoiding corruption in market research. Mostly because I worked for a company that was corrupt.

Kerry Guard [00:06:55]:
First hand knowledge, I mean Exactly. That helps. That certainly-

Adam Aragon [00:07:00]:
How can you speak of what not to do unless you've seen someone do the wrong thing?

Kerry Guard [00:07:03]:
Wow. What a journey you've had. And it's all cultivated to this one place where now you are the head of web development at Olivia, which is a cybersecurity company. Last question for you about your journey because I I find that It's an interesting one of, you know, cybersecurity's got sort of like this moat around it of You can't get in unless you, like, find your way through and usually either by accident, rarely on purpose, but then once you're in, you're in. You're good to go. So what's your story there? Did you in terms of how you found yourself in in cyber, and do you love it? Is it a love hate relationship? Like, how are you feeling about this industry as a whole? It's a complex one for sure.

Adam Aragon [00:07:50]:
To be honest, it wasn't something I was seeking out. I wasn't trying to get into cybersecurity specifically, but when it came across My desk is an opportunity. I just thought, like, well, there's another I haven't worked in and that I would like to work in. And then, yeah, that same conversation came up. I think you mentioned like there's kind of a it's a tight knit crowd and it's like, got its own bubble for sure. And so there was some kickback and like, oh, you don't have experience with cybersecurity? The only thing I can offer in return is I have experience with everything else. So I think I can have it.

Kerry Guard [00:08:24]:
Yes. Especially not just everything else, but the the complex those complex buyers, man, they really know how to make our jobs hard. Yeah.

Adam Aragon [00:08:37]:
This is

Kerry Guard [00:08:37]:
one of the most complex audiences you worked with?

Adam Aragon [00:08:43]:
Yeah. I mean, there there's very specific targeting, you know, for cybersecurity is like not the biggest market, you know, and the people run it sometimes are in departments, Sometimes they're sea level, you know, and, targeting sea level people for, you know, en mass So via the web, is a difficult task on its own. And, yeah, it's it's like really hard to draw the ideal customer profile for a cyber Security depending on what type you're doing. We we've struggled with kinda like, okay, who exactly are we going for? And like, where would they be? And the answer is like, 5 different

Kerry Guard [00:09:19]:
this is about right. Yes. We're gonna unpack that in a second and maybe that lends itself to our next question around, or maybe a dozen, but what's 1 big challenge in your current situation role, whether it's your personal or whether it's a company or whether it's a role? Like, whatever challenge is sort of keeping you up at night, what's what's hard right now in the land of Adam?

Adam Aragon [00:09:42]:
Well, we are going through a couple different evolutions on the website. And so, when we got there, I just referred to everything that had come before me as version 1. And we, immediately got down to which ended up kind of like throwing a grenade and watching it all burn. The, the old website, was running on a kind of a clunky CMS, Drupal, I'm not sure if some people are. Oz. So that could be controversial.

Kerry Guard [00:10:13]:
And good on them. Yep.

Adam Aragon [00:10:15]:
And, yeah, we, I I just came in in the experience making any kind of requests to the web team, of executing anything, of localizing anything, optimizing anything was extremely long and involved And required like 99% help of an agency that helped build the site anyway. So we immediately went to rebuild the site, and we did a bunch of research into different CMSs and we actually settled on Webflow. Flow is kind of an unusual choice. It's like, it's fairly new, you know, but it's Definitely like a modern solution, and it does a lot of great things from a tech perspective, but in particular, it really helps us tie in with Figma and brand design. Our brand design team is, like, second to none. They're absolutely awesome. They live and breathe in Figma. Us.

Adam Aragon [00:11:03]:
And Figma and Webflow look almost identical.

Kerry Guard [00:11:06]:
Yes. Yes.

Adam Aragon [00:11:08]:
And they and they work. Yeah. There's actually a plug in to like literally copy a component from Figma and paste it into

Kerry Guard [00:11:14]:
My

Adam Aragon [00:11:17]:
Az. Yeah. We we had a we had a brand team that is like a lot more hands on than it was on it to, like, give them the capability to, like, literally get in there and touch stuff and, like, be able to Not just hand us a Figma and hope it goes to plan. So yeah, that's that was a big one. Just basically just reinventing completely the process of How we do everything, what technology we're building on, what teams can access it and use it and how, and Now that we've finished that, we've call it B2. And we're already planning V3.

Kerry Guard [00:11:48]:
That's exciting. It is cool. Big lift moving system to system.

Adam Aragon [00:11:53]:
Oh, yeah. And we're not gonna change systems again. Thank thank everyone above. Yeah. The, the change was pretty difficult. Yeah. It took about 6 months.

Kerry Guard [00:12:06]:
It's sort of like the thing that holds people back So often speaking from experience of switching from 1 system to another. But man, when you gotta do it, like, the sooner you can make that in my experience, like, the sooner you can when you see it happening, if know you gotta switch systems, buy the new system and just go. Like, otherwise you're, you're just delaying the inevitable and then you pay for it through subscription fees on the back end if you wanna move.

Adam Aragon [00:12:39]:
There's resistance to that too because I found in almost every role in marketing or digital marketing, whenever a new person comes on, they come with their own preconception of like what tech we should be using. And so a lot of marketing leaders complain like you you come in here and you say now we need to use this instead of that, you know, because it's what you're familiar with, you like or what you prefer and, you know, like, what is the argument, like, is that truly a better solution? Like, and then Yeah.

Kerry Guard [00:13:05]:
It's pretty precious.

Adam Aragon [00:13:06]:
Case we've in this case we've proved that out.

Kerry Guard [00:13:17]:
Self, no matter what system you're using, is pretty magical. Let's get into our topic because I really wanna understand and you mentioned it of agency versus internal. As an agency owner, I truly believe that for bigger companies in that a scale up enterprise realm of the world. Owning your website and MarTech is incredibly important, and It takes not everybody able to do that all in one go, but, like, eventually, like, that, in my opinion, should be the gold dinner. But I also don't live on the brand side. So I'm looking for somebody to either back me up or tell me I'm wrong. So what do you got for me, Adam? Am I on the right track? Or is does it really in typical marketing terms, it depends?

Adam Aragon [00:14:10]:
Yeah. I've worked with every shade in between the 2, us. And I think ideally it really just comes down to size and resources. I've worked, you know, at agencies for companies where they like Have any any developers or web team or anything? They just had no no bucket for that. So they just a 100% client on an agency. Az. And then I find as the companies get bigger and into the 500 to a 1000 employee range, you know, that then eventually they have either an IT or a marketing department that also includes a web team or a web department. Sometimes it's 1 person, it's 2, you know, sometimes it's 10, but and so the scale of the company, the more you have the ability to have resources internally, I find it's better to a manage it internally, just because agencies are their own business and it's always, you know, it it's not always going to a 100% align in terms Priority and goals and speed and turnaround.

Adam Aragon [00:15:08]:
So if you're a smaller company, I would a 100% recommend that you use an agency. If you're a bigger company, I would say start to build a team and let them run.

Kerry Guard [00:15:16]:
First of all, I just want to acknowledge the fact that you are drinking tea on Tea Syme. And it's like the cutest teacup in the world.

Adam Aragon [00:15:24]:
This this is my wife's. So, but I I did, bring tea for tea time.

Kerry Guard [00:15:29]:
You did. And what tea did you bring for us?

Adam Aragon [00:15:32]:
It's a it's a lemon ginger. I also have, the plate and scones.

Kerry Guard [00:15:36]:
Those look like blueberry scones?

Adam Aragon [00:15:38]:
They are blueberry scones. Yes. So blueberry scones, lemon ginger tea. I'm I'm ready and rocking.

Kerry Guard [00:15:43]:
You're in the zone. You're not messing around, Adam, I appreciate it. Make sure you get that pinky high in the air over there. Let's talk about, one of the things you mentioned is, you know, when you do transition to having that team internally and the different resources you sort of have from IT to web development. You're on the more marketing and brand side, so I'm curious there of what your relationship is. Do you solely own because there's sort of this bridge that needs to happen between the front end, the pretty side, the marketing side, and then the back end of the product and, like, once you sign inside. So is there a clear divide on that? Do y'all work together? What sort of the setup.

Adam Aragon [00:16:28]:
The situation we have here is similar to the situation I've had at several other companies which is that there is a very clear divide And I, I believe that that is probably the ideal situation. The marketing website is a marketing tool. Like, I mean, that your .com is sales, .com is a funnel, your .com is. And the product is definitely its own beast and when you try to run them both simultaneously, You're either having 1 engineering team running on 2 different systems or you're trying to make 1 system each other. And neither of those is ideal. So when you can have 1 team doing one thing which is marketing and a marketing website, I think it's best to to like let that separation exist. And obviously like if you can coordinate on like brand and UI UX and, you know, similar elements like you don't want a complete disparity there. Like brand should be a top of mind for both teams.

Adam Aragon [00:17:23]:
Yeah. That's that's just my take on it.

Kerry Guard [00:17:25]:
Almost 2 different audiences from the unknown audience or the just figuring things out, or do I want this thing audience to the I'm in this, and I need to build this, and I do this thing. And it's Not not necessarily a mindset on the user standpoint, but a mindset on the marketers or the product marketers or the web team standpoint, it's hard to make that switch all the way up to never heard this thing. What am I gonna do about it? All the way down to that nitty gritty user experience, is where you know, we talk so much about the user. So about the user. Yes. But you need the right marketers who are in the user mind in the moment of, in which things are happening. I feel like that's what you're saying.

Adam Aragon [00:18:07]:
Yeah. Like, you know, meet people where they live. Az. Yeah. So I I think that, I have worked at companies where we had to kind of fight for that and, like, Rest control away from engineering and IT. I've worked at companies where you do just have to work, you know, alongside engineering and IT. And that's not to say there's anything bad with that, like I actually love working with, like, developers and backend developers, programmers, you know, and You often collaborate on projects at the various companies I've been at. But yeah, like I said, I think it just makes things a whole lot simpler when you're kind of working in your own domain.

Adam Aragon [00:18:45]:
And some people say like, well, shouldn't it all be the same? Shouldn't it all run off the same set of data? Yeah. Shouldn't it all have access to the same resources? And you know in a in a grand perfect world like yes, but there's no CMS system to date I've ever seen that can Do that in a significant way properly for marketing and for it.

Kerry Guard [00:19:02]:
Tell me more about that. I my gut tells me that engineering probably wants to work more in hard code where the marketing side wants to work more in I'm gonna say this and it's gonna sound bad, but I really don't mean it because it's really in it's really helpful, but more of that WYSIWYG, less code, but, like, move things around and things do what I tell it to do versus trying to learn a different language quite literally.

Adam Aragon [00:19:30]:
That can depend.

Kerry Guard [00:19:31]:
On?

Adam Aragon [00:19:34]:
Well, on the team that you're working with. I mean, if you have skilled developers who are either, you know, full stack or you have back end and front end developers on your team, like, There's a place for a back end developer and there's a place for a full stack developer on a marketing team because they can run the back end and the programming and the custom requests like, and many teams I worked at do have that and so I've worked at teams where the website's just as technical as anywhere else you might find it, but it was located in marketing and I've worked for, you know, like in the situation we're in now where we did deliberately choose something that was low code, and so you, you know, to have kind of a WYSIWYG interface for our, you know, people in brand and design who do so much Heavy lift here. So it it just kinda depends, I think, like I said, on what the situation is, what the skill level of the developers are and how big of a team you have. If you have 2 people, you know, maybe it was a big choice that's best for everyone because it's the simplest and most straightforward. But if you have 10, then you can afford to have people who specialize in back and front end.

Kerry Guard [00:20:38]:
It sounds like we also have the tools available to us to actually make those decisions these days where it's not Sort of a needing of both, you know, back in the WordPress days. You sort of needed that back end developer who could code the things into the WYSIWYG to a certain stem, but then you still needed somebody to go make a ton of changes on back end and manage the thing because we all know WordPress is a heavy lift whether we wanna agree to that or not. It is.

Adam Aragon [00:21:03]:
I've played with WordPress for many years.

Kerry Guard [00:21:06]:
And now we can find this beautiful balance in deciding what we need. I I don't know, like, as it on the designer side, which I was more on the dot designer side than I was on the developer side. I've just sort of leaped to the dev side recently because I really just start like, I just couldn't fight with CSS anymore.

Adam Aragon [00:21:28]:
I am.

Kerry Guard [00:21:29]:
Mhmm. And so when I could actually, like, lay it out and design it and then kick it to a developer who then just, like, made it all magically happen, I was like, yes. And then I was introduced to more of that Webflow tailwind sort of like world and I was like, I could do both, this is amazing. But like, yeah, CSS definitely slowed me down, from a coding standpoint. So it sounds like you have more of a design heavy team who could actually control the code now without coding. 

Adam Aragon [00:22:00]:
We we have our web team to execute most of our requests, but We have it in such a way that like when we're collaborating or building something new that that portion can be done right alongside brand Get their hands dirty if they want to. You know, we basically made it so that they have the option to dip in whenever they want to, but they don't have to. But, yeah, in regards to, like, my divine background, I started more of that, like, my my ideal Career when I was probably 15, 20, which I don't know if this is common or unusual, I wanted to be a creative director. Yeah. And, I wanted to work fully in design and I learned Photoshop and Illustrator and Flash. I worked in animation for many years. I worked I do video editing, sound editing, creation, everything multimedia that you can think of.

Adam Aragon [00:22:55]:
I've probably dabbled in it for a year or 2. And, Yeah, I, I love, I love it. I love being creative. I've always been a a creative person. But I find myself kind of like shifting more and more and more. It's like all of many code and CMS back end. So forth. So that's just sort of like the path that I've taken and, you know, I still enjoy working in marketing because it is More front end than back end, just to be safe.

Adam Aragon [00:23:26]:
With the phrasing there. Yeah, terminology. Yeah. More more front end than back end. And so yeah, I I specialize a lot in front end development. I'm a pretty good translator between designers and developers, Executives and other departments.

Kerry Guard [00:23:42]:
That is a knack. Cause it's different, it's a different Vocabulary, it's a different way of thinking. It's a more visual way of thinking versus a more verbal way of thinking. And so for you to literally jump between those sort of languages It's very handy.

Adam Aragon [00:24:06]:
Is that code switching, they call it that?

Kerry Guard [00:24:09]:
Code switching. Yes.

Adam Aragon [00:24:10]:
Yeah. I'm not sure. I tell people that I speak tech, I speak marketing, and I speak executive.

Kerry Guard [00:24:17]:
Oh man, I wanna unpack the executive side hard, but we're gonna hold on that for a second. We'll maybe I can end there. Let's talk about the user experience side and the marketing side because with your experience and as well as your technical capability, as well as your design capability. Let's unpack some of the best this is for folks of, like, what you seem what you see to work in the industry and maybe what you haven't seen to work in the industry. So we're talking specifically to b to b marketers with a front end website who need to get folks from a a complex audience, folks. People who know they need they don't know they need marketing. Marketing just exists. And every once in a while they have to come in contact with him for better or worse.

Kerry Guard [00:25:08]:
And they go along with it not because they want to, but because they have to. So that's the mindset of our audience. How do you you know, in your experience from a user experience standpoint in the website, how does the website play a role in that? And what are some of the best practices that you've seen to really help those audiences through making those decisions?

Adam Aragon [00:25:29]:
I think in terms of best practices, there are obviously like, there's a best practice way to do X, Y, and Z, but you still have to choose X, Y, and Z. And so I usually tell people to try to, like, you know, work within the limitations that they have. And so If you only have 2 developers, like I said, you know, maybe, you think the solution is better and you can actually bring in people who aren't coders from the other company to work, you know, but if you have resources and a bigger team, you can, you know, get a little more creative. Relying on an agency entirely, I think it often be frustrating, and so I really recommend like that people get a partnership with an agency, like where you kinda work side and you know, feel like more connected, or you know, use it, use an agency to transition to a self sustaining a lot of what we did when we built our new website agency to help the migration, and we had trouble, throughout the whole process of migrating the website we went to them many times and said, we need you to do this, but we also need you to teach us how to do us. And, we we shared expertise. I, it may not be in the agency's best interest to help their clients move away from them, but, but yeah, it was important to us. So, yeah, like, we wanna know how this site works and we wanna be able to maintain it, do everything when you, you know, even if you guys are shut down tomorrow.

Kerry Guard [00:27:00]:
Yeah. Yeah. No. It's important to have a good partnership between you and the agency regardless of who owns the end code at the end of the day because at the you gotta know how to use it. And if something did happen to the agency overnight, you gotta know what to do about it, especially if you're in cyber. I partnership's so important regardless of partner like, in any partnership, it really does need to come down to mutual respect for one another and making sure each party has what they need at the end of the day. In terms of some of these, you know, I do think it matters on the size of the agent, the size of the company you're working in and the resources you have. In terms of the website user experience, so we've covered a lot now on the internal resources and that experience, because we're all users and we have our own user experience of the tech tools we have to mind navigate every day and making sure that we have a there's nothing worse than showing up to work and your tech not working.

Kerry Guard [00:28:02]:
Especially now in a remote world where you have to sort of like be your own IT person and troubleshoot your own tech. I wasn't gonna say tech there, but I'm gonna say tech. 

Adam Aragon [00:28:15]:
Gotcha.

Kerry Guard [00:28:16]:
So yes to that of us be our own users of of that experience and making sure that we have the right resources to fit our needs based off of the guidelines that we're sort of boxed into depending on budget, people, roles and responsibilities, so on and so forth. And you gave us a lovely example of what that could look like in a perfect I it's not a perfect role, but in your scenario, especially when you have a a designer heavy, user base.

Adam Aragon [00:28:46]:
And a and a company willing to give you the leash to do that.

Kerry Guard [00:28:50]:
Yes. I mean, that's amazing. Right? And unpacking how you made that happen all day, we're gonna get to, because I do wanna understand your your executive speak. Yes to that. Let's talk for a second before we get there about the end user. So an end user comes to the website and they're trying to figure out whether this is the right thing for them, and you talk about the user experience a lot. And when you're talking about enterprise websites, they're huge and complex and multi levels deep. So for any enterprise or even a scale up companies that are listening right now, what would sort of be your, I don't wanna say advice because I hate that word.

Kerry Guard [00:29:35]:
And maybe you have some stories to lend itself to. But, like, in your experience of what you seem to work and not work, what would be some of your go to best practices to ensure good user experience, end user experience.

Adam Aragon [00:29:49]:
For user experience in particular, I would say gather data, And be driven by data. By watching. Yep. Yeah. I think, Yeah. We we we have, internally in our company, we they data driven everything. And we like that and I'm a big fan of that as well. We use tools, you know, like custom scripts and Hotjar and heat maps and, AB testing and so forth, to basically figure out the answer to that question.

Adam Aragon [00:30:20]:
The answer isn't go do this. It's try what you think might work, find out what does and doesn't work about that, and tweak it and refine it and tweak it and refine it until the heat death of the universe.

Kerry Guard [00:30:32]:
Iterate, iterate, iterate. And iterate. Yes. I totally agree. It has to start yes. All 4 of them. All 4 of them. It does have to start with the data and and start and end and then and then repeat the cycle the cycle of, reading the data.

Kerry Guard [00:30:53]:
What data points are you looking at from a from a web dev experience? I imagine obviously ROI revenue at the end of the day. What are the leading key indicators of like what matters to you, trying to figure out whether this is the right user experience to lead to that at the end of the day.

Adam Aragon [00:31:15]:
Well, I've often fought with, the concept of, you know, like a lot of people say like, well, our website is for CRO, our website is for Nothing but a funnel. So like, literally if we could just put 15 CTAs all over the homepage and numerically like that gets more clicks And having an actual content heavy homepage, you know, let's do that. And it's like, well, you know, like, you might be winning in numbers here, but you're losing, like, You're losing your soul in this, like so, I I do have to kinda, like, fight that battle between, like, we wanna make something that is actually, like, user friendly, that is easy to understand, that is welcoming and interesting, and converts, you know, like, at the end of the day, like you said, doesn't convert, doesn't turn into ROI. And I think that having genuine, like, Good content and genuine good UI UX and like, experience, is the real path forward for any company. So like just trying to get there with like trickery and funnels and 3,000 CTAs and, you know, like forcing everyone to just, like, go to a blank landing page with a for with a form, you know? Not that we don't have landing pages, not that we don't have PGA's all over our website, But it's a matter of balancing that with good design and good feel.

Kerry Guard [00:32:38]:
I always like to ask myself a question when I'm seeing somebody on LinkedIn showcasing their latest quote, unquote hack of is this a marketing play or is it a marketing ploy?

Adam Aragon [00:32:52]:
I like that.

Kerry Guard [00:32:54]:
Who is this really for? Is this for the user or is this for the brand? Because usual see through that all day. Just all day.

Adam Aragon [00:33:06]:
I think that's, that's why I have such high respect for our Brand and design team, like I said, they they do a lot more heavy lifting than most companies I've been at. One, they're just dynamite designers. One of them I think used to be the head of design at Logitech and, you know, they they both have the experience and they're both amazing in Figma And can, like, basically create designs with you real time. And it's pretty incredible. I I've done design and they, like, blow me out of the water by a 100 fold. So it's great to watch them work. And yeah, they are good designers because they think about all that cohesively. They think about is this accessible? Does that got the right contrasting colors.

Adam Aragon [00:33:46]:
Is this WC3 compatible? Like, is it you know, they ask a lot of the questions that that classically are asked by the web team or never asked.

Kerry Guard [00:33:53]:
Those are really good points. Let's let's sit with that for a second because I don't know that we're all thinking about that. It's this balance between wanting to be cool and wanting to be accessible and and and finding that. So colors are definitely the contrast of things, color blindness for sure. In terms of how your team is is asking those questions and then the fruition of those, have you seen we know it comes back to numbers and data, like you said, in your experience from maybe previous companies working within this company or even before, you know, you've had this wonderful variety of experience. So maybe you've you have seen this and haven't seen this, but, like, is there a true difference in terms of the numbers of when you do think about that accessibility versus...

Adam Aragon [00:34:50]:
When you don't? Like, does accessibility drive conversion or ROI?

Kerry Guard [00:34:56]:
Or even, like, ex like, time on like, even leading indicators of engagement and I'm on-site. It's just like people being able to like, oh, I can read this.

Adam Aragon [00:35:04]:
Yeah. I mean, that's that's what it is. Right? Like, accessibility, like, Is often, like, associated with someone who's, like, you know, dealing with a disability, but it could just come down to, like, having the right amount of contrast and colors and text, Making it readable, like you said. And it's something we're like, the any average person could read it if they squint and concentrate, you know, but, the fact that the accessibility standards are there force you to kinda think more clearly, and I think they just kinda make your They force you to make design more sensible. We all wanna be cool, we all wanna be creative, we'd all love to have websites made out of like, thinkies and circles, but, you know, it it like, there's a reason things like flow the way they do best practices best practices for design, best practices for development for UI UX, accessibility, often intersect in, like, just having sensibility, like, the polar sense. I

Kerry Guard [00:35:59]:
feel like the best websites, in my experience, have seemed to simplified. They're not trying so hard. There isn't as much overlay. There's a little bit of movement in animation, but it's not everything is moving in animated. Is that a trend you're you're seeing? What are sort of some of the trends you're seeing in terms of website design and development towards, not just accessibility, but just in better user experience.

Adam Aragon [00:36:29]:
I think you're you're describing like what hyper focused research has determined. Like so, you know, when you say, like, oh, they're not trying so hard, like, there's a way to look like you're not trying so hard. And there's a way to be simple but simple and still have info on the same page and have some animation and not too much animation. Like that is the result of Find it. You know, that's not I don't know if that's a trend so much as it is like finding out what doesn't work and chopping that away. Too much animation is distracting. Too much information on the screen is like not not not delivering or not getting read. And so I think like you said, like what you're describing is, less casual trend than more like Focused results of, of really like drilling down with data into what works and what doesn't.

Kerry Guard [00:37:21]:
Less is more folks. Less is more. Speaking of that, in terms of the, oh, I had a question on something. I should have my seat there at a minute. It's gone because I I was hanging on to every word. But I in terms of trends and the user experience and this idea of less is more. Nope. It's gone.

Kerry Guard [00:37:49]:
It'll come back to me. It'll be okay. We're gonna move on.

Adam Aragon [00:37:52]:
Z. Well, less is more. I think, like, you know, to to state take a step back to your original question, I think, like, simple, You know, simple is better in, you know, in a in a vacuum, like, just that makes sense. My my point is that they get to simplicity by get by data, not necessarily by intuition. And I Like in an ideal world, like we have enough people who are all skilled in UI, UX, and behavior to, just draw that conclusion, but it's very often the result of Mining and and data.

Kerry Guard [00:38:27]:
In terms of product market fit and website design and experience, there's gotta be this lovely meet and greet that happened between the 2. How in terms of messaging, How do you help the website deliver that messaging in a really important way without it feeling like especially with software, it's really hard. Feels sort of vapor wary and, like, this is tangible. I'm gonna do what I need it to do. Let's talk let's sit with messaging for a second. How you, navigate that. Is it come back to just the data? Is it the, the product team? Is it marketing speak? What sort of, what have you seen work?

Adam Aragon [00:39:10]:
I mean, in our case, content and comms, like, are, you know, people use brand to deliver our voice. Find what that is. And so we often, like, look to them and lean to the actual message. And I think it's good to people, sell in the areas they excel at. So maybe it's not for me to decide, You know what our messaging is like, it's to the experts we have on hand and let them decide. I think, like, you mentioned, you know, pictures of products and things looking like vaporware. I just I've seen a lot of companies struggle with products that don't necessarily look Good or like look sexy? You know, like some of them are like big clunky giant enterprise applications that like may do amazing things, but to look at it in a screenshot you'd be like, That's like a weird spreadsheet, you know? So, you know, they they and a lot of companies actually end up doing like an overhaul to their product to make it, To beautify it. No.

Adam Aragon [00:40:11]:
To make it, like, pretty and cool and appealing. But, you know, not all products work like that. And so you can take a screenshot of what you have and put it up on the website And that makes it more tangible, but it might also make it less desirable. And so sometimes the answer is to illustrate, a similar version of that layout, like drawing and illustration and vector and, and kind of give a rough idea of like, here's what's happening on screen and here's what we're you know, and it just depends. Like, if you're working with a product that does, like, have a lot of flash and, like, look really and on itself, like you just present it, but if not, sometimes you just need to decide what layer of abstraction you need on top of that.

Kerry Guard [00:40:53]:
I yeah. I'm I'm perusing the as we talk. And I love these vectors and graphs because I think it does it just does a better job of displaying the story of what you're trying to say versus the screenshot of the thing that might not actually, like, Do what you wanted to do. Right? And so image could certainly play a do play a role. There's a wonderful tool called walnut, dot I o. I think that people are using in terms of sort of, like, a demo, like, a walk through demo that you sort of experience on your own. But it's this whole idea of of less is more. It's so hard to do, well of getting your point across, not making you feel like vaporware, and having that beautiful market fit.

Kerry Guard [00:41:36]:
And so hats off to you and the team for making that happen. Let's talk about the executive side of it for a second. You mentioned having the executive speak. Doing any sort of big, website lift is, a a huge undertaking to say the least. And so what was it for you when you walked in and felt like you didn't have the right toolset to get the team where they needed to go, what was what was sort of the action plan in making that happen? Did you just, like, show up to executive team and say, this is what we need to do, or was there,

Adam Aragon [00:42:14]:
Not

Kerry Guard [00:42:16]:
I would hope not, but I had to ask the question.

Adam Aragon [00:42:18]:
I've learned my lesson and thankfully I haven't have experience doing this over and over and over again. Not to just come in and say you need X, but you need something to support that, right? And so first thing I do is just gather information from Team and one of the questions I asked her like what are your pain points? What are you frustrated by? What takes too long? What's more difficult than it should be? And collate all that data. And then just also do things like look at your performance and your speed and your metrics Like, you know, hey, our core web vital scores are on average and mobile at 15 to 20 out of 100. You know, like that's something tangible you can bring to the table. And then you can also look at the cost of the agency or the cost they thought, you know, to operate. We made the change from our old system to our new system like our hosting bill got cut in half and we immediately saved like, you know, $50,000 a year or something like that. So. You know, we Sometimes change.

Adam Aragon [00:43:20]:
Yeah. So I basically like my like like that's my approach is to basically gather a bunch of supporting data. You don't wanna just go in there and say, this is my opinion. I'm an expert. Trust me. You wanna go in and say, Hey. I've been asking a lot of questions. I've talked to a lot of people.

Adam Aragon [00:43:34]:
I've done a lot of research. Here's a really cool slide deck for that. I know you executives love slide deck And, Yeah, they really do. So yeah. And then you you you bring all that and you put it together and you just say you you give them like no room to argue. I've covered every base. I thought of every corner. This is cheaper, this is faster, this is better, this is less painful.

Adam Aragon [00:43:59]:
This will streamline and improve our speed of turnaround times going forward. You know, and you do have to be careful not to like promise the moon because there's things that like trip up a design and development or migration, Especially when you're moving to a new CMS or an unknown CMS, but you know, you have goals that are attainable. And I I, you know, is to like under promise and over deliver, where you can. But often is the case, similar to what I found at Illumio, where they just kind of haphazardly stumbled into where they're at, as and as a result, obviously, it's just not great in a lot of aspects. And it's easy to quantify that. Once you can quantify that, you have the data, you bring that data

Kerry Guard [00:44:44]:
If there's anything we can all take away from this conversation, it's that the devil is in the data, not the details. So capture your data, tell the right story. Did you do any research, like, when you were starting to uncover, you asking these really intentional questions, getting the really great feedback? You've obviously used tech stacks beforehand, but did you do your own research to see, like, if there was something a better fit out there for your new for your for this team that you were working with. Did you just say no? I know it works from beforehand, and so we're going to use that. What was one of your approach of, okay, I have all this data, I gotta take it to the exec team. What, what'd you do in between to make sure you had that, that end to end story.

Adam Aragon [00:45:31]:
I do the research. I I'm totally, you know, honestly and genuinely like a tech nerd in the sense that I, like, will read about web technologies even if I worked at a McDonald's. I, you know, I'm interested about it and I'm passionate about it and I try to stay up on tech Trends. But you get into a cycle with a certain company in a certain CMS and you get comfortable and you work on it for years, you know? And so it was actually me trying to stretch away from like a knee jerk reaction when I got here was was like I've worked with WordPress for It's literally since WordPress was invented, so maybe 15 years or something. And, you know, it's easy for me to say like, well we can make this all work Like you know I've done it before. But I always do try to take the tiny step back and Google and look out there and say like What would be the best fit for us? What's the latest trend? What is taking off and like what is, you know, better at doing this specific thing Yeah. And other companies. And we took a chance like moving to Webflow.

Adam Aragon [00:46:33]:
I had never used Webflow previously. I was moving to a CMS that I did not know and I did not was not familiar with but, I was impressed enough by how they, you know, how it works and how similar it is to Figma, how Intuitive it is that I thought, okay, this is actually pretty friendly to devs and it's pretty friendly to non devs. And, it's easy to understand. So we took a chance and, you know, it looked like the best option and so far that has played out for us. I I'd to answer your question, I I always do try to stop and do research and not just go.

Kerry Guard [00:47:07]:
I think that's so key. And I just wanna be clear with folks who maybe aren't familiar, but Figma is the most magical tool of all when it comes to in my experience, comes to designing a website. So I use Tailwind, And Tailwind and Figma actually have a a similar, connection where I can pull in, the components from Tailwind and then build up landing pages from there and then just port out the HTML, as I see fit. So, and I think Webflow works similarly. So if you have a design heavy team who's very particular and they really like Figma, this was definitely Webflow is definitely a way to go. Like, can you remind me what's the CMS you're using?

Adam Aragon [00:47:54]:
Webflow.

Kerry Guard [00:47:56]:
Webflow to CMS. Okay. Yes. Because I also know it's the components piece as well in terms of the HTML and CSS, IDs versus not fighting CSS. A whole new world, folks.

Adam Aragon [00:48:12]:
You can build your own library up In web in, Webflow, like, basically, you're just creating CSS classes and stuff. So you can choose, like, a pretty existing set of classes like Tailwind. We're using one called Client First which is by, the agency Finsuite, helped us migrate our website. And they're just kinda considered like the foremost in in terms of like web flow development. They have their own basically version of like tailwind for Webflow. You know, it's not tailwind, but it's it's a similar idea. So, yeah. They they gave us that Lego set, like.

Kerry Guard [00:48:45]:
It is a Lego set. That's why I love it so much. And just so yeah. So the way that it works is before when you were working with systems like WordPress press or even just hard coding, you would have your HTML on one side, your CSS on another. You have to create idea IDs on the HTML to then tell the CSS what you're trying to do, then you have to finagle the CSS to get the HTML and have it all aligned, and it was this really painful, painful, painful process. And now there's these wonderful systems like Tailwind, like Webflow, like these libraries you're mentioning, where the CSS is already built for you. You just gotta pull the ID in where you need it, which just gives you so much more flexibility because in every section. Every component you build can be its own still has to feel like part of the website, but you can give it its own little bit of spark and identity and movement and not have to be, like, tied in or have to go rebuild a whole new thing.

Kerry Guard [00:49:46]:
Well, Trevor's got some questions here. He wants to know is it fast? So in my experience, super fast because it's static. What's your

Adam Aragon [00:49:54]:
Yeah, I think that's a good summary. I think, like, the reason that we chose Webflow and, I'll ask your question about hosting in a second there, Trevor, But, we chose Webflow because, basically it has an interface on top of it that the tool itself, But what it spits out is just HTML, CSS, JavaScript. You end up with the result of what you'd get if you hand coded it anyway. And that is like, to me the Holy Grail of CMS systems. Like to get away from PHP and abstraction and Adobe Experience Manager and Jason and, you know, and Jekyll and and so many other like weird layers you can put over everything. And just like basically like the end result is literally you can export it and move it to a static host if you want. You could just go host it on AWS and it would run. Like because it's just a normal flat website when it's when it's rendered, when it's done.

Adam Aragon [00:50:48]:
So by nature that's generally the fastest way because there's less, dynamic, you know, things happening in the background. It's just like operating a static site which is generally accepted as one of the fastest ways to do it. In terms of hosting, I would think it's perfectly fine. The product is 1 and the same. So if you have Webflow, Your hosting is Webflow and your CMS is Webflow. All one thing, it's always up to date, it's completely cloud based, and I love that that gets rid of 1 more layer too which is your hosting. There's no question as to whether or not it'll work and there's no question as Whether or not it's up to date, it is all managed for you.

Kerry Guard [00:51:28]:
It's, pretty magical. Pretty magical. We use, Like I mentioned, Tailwinds, Next. Js, and then the Cloudflare sit with it. So it's not quite as streamlined as, Webflow, but what a great example of Webflow and how that can work and then the beauty of that. And it's Cloudflare. Cloudflare. Yeah.

Kerry Guard [00:51:48]:
That's awesome.

Adam Aragon [00:51:50]:
Finally. Yeah. I love

Kerry Guard [00:51:51]:
Just works. Sounds something that just works.

Adam Aragon [00:51:55]:
We actually did struggle with that a bit. Because I I think Webflow, Webflow is Designed to be completely self contained and just run and host and present all 1 vector. So we said, hey, we wanna run our DNS through CloudFlare And have more proxy, cache, and security options. You know, they were like, oh, yeah, you can do that, I guess. Like, you know, there definitely wasn't something where they're like, oh, yeah, we support that a 100%, like and so, you know, we we had to trip over a few traps, getting that to work, but it wasn't too bad.

Kerry Guard [00:52:27]:
I might need to, do another show with you, just the 2 of us so I can take all that down and then create a little blog post for us to share. That would be amazing because I do think this is the future. I I do think it's moving to this to the static web generator, place. And so giving people more of an option of, like, what that can mean, especially on a cyber side, I think could be incredibly useful. Adam, I'm so grateful for this conversation of trying to understand how to take your website in house, how to set it up with the right sources in your team, understanding your team, whether they're more web, whether they're more design focused or more dev focused and getting the right tools in place and getting a lot of your comfort zone to make that happen, folks. It's hard. Believe me, but making sure you got the right tools for the right people is huge. And then building that user experience through the data, understanding the data, making those iterations over time, and not just going on your gut is incredibly important, and I'm so grateful for this conversation.

Kerry Guard [00:53:29]:
Adam, did I miss anything or anything you wanna double down on? What's your, like, last piece of or your last thought for folks as they think about, you know, bringing their website in house and making it the best user experience they can.

Adam Aragon [00:53:43]:
Yeah. I mean, the the right tool for the right job, and I will say like I've I have kind of fallen in love with Webflow. It's, kind of become one of my favorite CMSs very quickly, and, yeah, I highly recommend it. I think it's I think it's actually good for most cases, except for at a certain scale it starts to falter. So if you're dealing with, a 1000 pages, 10,000 pages, that's probably fine. If you have 50, a 100,000 pages, that might start to get unwieldy on that platform. So there is there is a there is a ceiling to scale in terms of, Webflow, but anything below that I think works extremely well. But yeah, no, I I think, just being data driven, and embracing marketing as the owner of the website and, like, the Way to move it forward is probably my 2 key takeaways.

Kerry Guard [00:54:32]:
Amazing. Last question for you, Adam. We're wrapping up here, folks. This is my, you are more than a marketer, more than a web developer and designer there, Adam. In the last 3 years and the change of the world, thank you COVID, what's changed for you? Have you picked up any new hobbies? Are you traveling more that the world's opening up? Have you Dove into something totally different. What's, what's changed for you?

Adam Aragon [00:54:58]:
It really, like, just made remote a reality, and obviously by necessity, so I think when originally everything, you know, the whole world shut down, I was at Carta, I think, and they and they basically just sent everyone home and said, Okay, we're all working remote now. I think it was right before I segued into ActiveCampaign, and when I got there I was just tired as completely remote. I worked as the CMO at a previous company and so she kind of like, got me in the door and, you know, I I just said, well, like, they're based in Chicago. And I said, well, I'm not in Chicago. And she said, well, I want you to run the web team and I, you know, Let's let's do this. So I said, okay, just hire me completely remote. And so we did. And so that was actually my 1st job where I was hired to be completely remote.

Adam Aragon [00:55:45]:
And since then I've worked remotely and so when I left ActiveCampaign and went, you know, went here I was looking for remote jobs. And I moved from California from the Bay Area from near San Francisco to Las Vegas, because That's the, you know, closest place I could go to actually afford a house, that wasn't like a closet and 2 homeless people holding it up. But, Az. The Yeah. So I have to be callous there.

Kerry Guard [00:56:15]:
There's truth in that. That's hard truth, but there's

Adam Aragon [00:56:18]:
but, yeah, We were able to afford a house here in Vegas and I, you know, have a great fiber connection and I work remotely and I have a great setup and, yeah, I I I've always had a great setup at home and the ability to work at home and when I do freelance work, that's where I do it and it's always where I'm most comfortable and Where I'm most productive and so it's been absolutely eye opening and game changing to me to be able to be able to do remote and do it successfully and, like, happily. I say I was muting 4 hours a day, in San Francisco. And I lived 20 miles away. It was Yeah. The, the, I don't know if you're familiar with the travel I did.

Kerry Guard [00:56:56]:
I lived in the Bay Area for, for a stint, so where were you traveling one end to the other? What was the

Adam Aragon [00:57:03]:
I lived in, San Leandro and Hayward and Emeryville. Uh,s. Man. So I kinda get getting closer and closer to San Francisco, but it doesn't really matter because once you get once you get near the bridge, it just turns into like Inching, inching, inching along. And so, yeah, my commute one way, it was easily hour and a half, 2 hours most of the time. And so I was spending 3 to 4 hours minimum in a car. So the 2nd we were in remote, I got 4 hours a day back. Az.

Adam Aragon [00:57:32]:
What did

Kerry Guard [00:57:32]:
you do with those 4 hours?

Adam Aragon [00:57:34]:
I well, I took a I actually took half of them and slept in. You've said that. And and the other 2 extended my workday. But yeah, no, I I end up I honestly, legitimately, like, people's people make arguments for and against time I legitimately like get more done and more productive and more focused and at work more here than I did Going into an office, chit chatting, going to lunch. Yeah. Like the argument for like, it's, it's more productive is a 100% in my mind. On

Kerry Guard [00:58:07]:
the flip side of that, where do you find your belonging? Where do you find your people if you're not going into an office and you're not engaged with the we all need it. Belonging's such a huge part of who we are as humans. So if it's not at work and in person, then where is that for you?

Adam Aragon [00:58:25]:
Well, in high school, I was a goth, so I don't really need people.

Kerry Guard [00:58:31]:
You know? Nothing wrong with me a lover.

Adam Aragon [00:58:34]:
So Yeah. I didn't know. Introverting is, is an option. Yeah. I I would say I struggle with that especially moving to somewhere new, like, you know, living in Las Vegas, it's like, oh, like, well, we don't know anyone here. And, it could be the case if you work remote at home too is like how do I get out and go do things? But I think it's just important to like follow your passions like I have a, weekly D and D group Hi, Ron. Hi, everybody. Met met people through there who ended up being some of our closest friends.

Adam Aragon [00:59:06]:
And so, you know, I just kind of took What I'm passionate about and I put it out there to the world and, you know, that's my my duck call and see who answers.

Kerry Guard [00:59:17]:
I love that. Yes. We all have our duck calls of what we're passionate about, and then being able to find our our groups of folks who have the similar the similar vibe, I think, is easier to find in a remote world than to, you know, stumble upon it in person, especially when we when we're in person and at an office with people who aren't necessarily the people we would pick, it's different. Yes. So, yes. So everything you're saying, I'm I'm on board. I'm the same way. Bit of an introvert, come out an extrovert in these moments, but, you know, finding the right people who I can, nerd out with is and working with is is where I like to hang.

Kerry Guard [00:59:56]:
So I'm with you on that.

Adam Aragon [00:59:57]:
Meet meet up with my total choice.

Kerry Guard [01:00:00]:
Yes. Yes to that. Where can people find you if they wanna learn more about your web hosting, about web flow, about just building a team for for the user experience. Where are you these days?

Adam Aragon [01:00:11]:
I mean, you can Google my name and you'll probably find lots of examples of random things that I've done. But you know, you can I think LinkedIn is probably the actually the number one way to reach me? And it's literally my name linkedin.com/likeatameragon. So it's easy to remember, easy to find. And, you know, I I tend to do most of my, like, networking connection through there lately. I used to have like my own website. I I still have like a freelance website somewhere I haven't touched in 10 years. But, yeah, I tell people like, you know, Like, especially for people looking for like professional questions and exchanging of tech and ideas like start there, You know, and if we're hit it off and we're cool, like, we'll meet on Facebook, you know, and, and some day in person, who knows?

Kerry Guard [01:00:59]:
I love it. The remote world here, it's, It's a wonderful place so we get to meet people from all over the globe and find find our duck calls. I'm here for that. Adam, I'm so grateful. Thank you so much for this conversation.

Adam Aragon [01:01:16]:
Yeah. I absolutely enjoyed it and thank you so much for having me.

Kerry Guard [01:01:21]:
Thank you for listening. If you found this episode okay. Like, permits and to share this episode of frauds you find Mkt Inc. The Digital Marketing Plex BB brands get found via SEO and digital ads, measuring it end to end with analytics. It's hosted by me, Carrie Gard, CEO and cofounder of Refugee Marketing. And if you're if you would like to be a guest, DM me. Let's hang out. I'd love to see and, see if you'd be like to be a guest and go from there.

Kerry Guard [01:01:44]:
Adam, thank you so much.