Treating The Job Hunt like Demand Marketing with Theresa Potratz!

Overview:

In this episode of Tea Time with Tech Marketing Leaders, host Kerry Guard sits down with Theresa Potratz, a dynamic demand gen and growth marketing expert. Theresa shares her insights on navigating the job search process with strategy and confidence, breaking down her proven system for finding the right role—including networking through coffee chats, leveraging data-driven decisions, and negotiating from a position of strength. She also dives into the importance of authentic communication in marketing, blending B2B and B2C approaches, and why mindset matters just as much as skillset.

Transcript:

Kerry Guard 0:02

Kerry, hello. I'm Kerry guard, and Welcome to Tea Time with tech marketing leaders. Welcome back to the show. I am so excited for this episode. I actually was like, when I met Teresa earlier this week, I was totally fangirling. It was like, really bad, and I'm sort of embarrassed and gonna turn bright red right now, but it's true, because I've been following her on LinkedIn, and I had a spot open on my show, and I was like, hey, slid into her DMs and said, Would you, I don't know, be free next Thursday? And lo and behold, we got a gem here in the nick of time. Perfect timing this episode, this conversation, is so spot on for where folks are both in marketing, of how we market, as well as for all those lovely humans who are trying to find their next job, which the struggle is so real, and so I get to bring both of these things together for y'all In a way that is so actionable. And that is like, why I love doing this, is that I don't like to bring things that are philosophical. I want it to be like you can get after it. I want you to feel powered after the show, to make your own spreadsheet and to make it happen, and then we're gonna follow up with you and make sure you did it. So that's gonna be happening. But I'm so excited to have this episode and for Theresa to join me a little quick little intro about Theresa, and then we're going to hear the most important thing, which is her story. So real quick, she is a hands on strategic leader, willing to lead by doing. She leads with curiosity and aims for the highest goals,

never shying away from taking calculated risks and embracing ambiguity as it comes through storytelling, she brings product and platform stories to life as relevant Client Solutions backed by data, context and case studies. Theresa, welcome to the show.

Theresa Potratz 1:55

Thanks for having me

Kerry Guard 1:58

like I said, so excited to have you before we get to the heart of our conversation. And spill all of the tea in job hunting, what's your story? You know? What are you looking for these days in terms of your next gig? And how did you how did you get to this point in your career? Yeah,

Theresa Potratz 2:15

so that's a big question. I currently am on the lookout for my next demand, Gen slash growth marketing role. So if you are a hiring manager or no one, keep me in your thoughts and the on the whole, I'm an industry agnostic marketer. I started my marketing career working for a jewelry store. This store didn't even have a website, so I really started figuring out, like, how could we post on social media within just a short period of time? By posting on Facebook, I was pulling in $25,000 every month in quantifiable sales. And it's super easy for that attribution. When somebody comes in with their phone and says, This ring, do you have this ring? No. Can you make another one? I will never have attribution that clean ever again, and that's the truth, right? So from there, I went to work for a SEO company. I got to learn the finer points of SEO, along with building social media plans for all of his clients, everything from mold remediation to sedation dentistry, the sexiest of of industries. And then I kind of, you know, went through, learned a couple more things as I as I went on. I've done higher ed I worked for a couple of years at an independent board game company where I was a part of three Kickstarter campaigns, all of which performed in the top 1% of all campaigns ever, and then I went to work for tech like so I have really gotten to see how things go and really take a bunch of disparate industries and learn from all of them.

Kerry Guard 3:54

I think what's so nice about this is I, I'm working with a law firm right now, and, you know, having worked in B to B Tech for so long, and seeing those long sales cycles, you know, that take months and months and months to get somebody from seeing your very first impression to to actually closing a deal. You know, you're looking at 12 to 18 months. Yeah, is, you know, it takes a while to get that going. So when you're in the consumer space and you're getting those dopamine hits of like, those deals close and so quick, it's like, to your point that attribution is the absolute dream, and to be able to bring that expertise from that space in a transactional way into a space that should feel like you should be able to make a little more transactional help people be able to make decisions a little faster. Is just i What a lovely history you have and being able to bring that to the table. So hats off to you and building that bridge with your consumer background into the B to b1 What would you say? I we're I promise we won't detour here too long, but I do think it's interesting, and I think we're in an interesting time where this is helpful. But is there anything you've taken from that era and applied to today in terms of sort of navigating this new world order of how buyers buy, in terms of longer sales cycles and committees and all of that sort of uphill battle we have as marketers.

Theresa Potratz 5:24

I have a hot take that people aren't going to like, and it's it's going to be if you are a B to B marketer, if you are a b to c marketer, if you are cut and dyed in that wool, you think this is the path, this is the way, these are the playbooks. And the truth is, it's a blend. Humans want to be talked to like humans, and so to be good at it, if you're doing ABM, if you're doing a multi threaded approach, you need to use those B to C communication styles and talk to them like you guys are going to be best friends. It's

Kerry Guard 6:02

it's an emotional buying period. Is emotional, whether you're buying your favorite pair of shoes that you're about to walk in until they fall apart, to making that martech tool or bringing that something into your tech stack as a as a CISO, it is an emotional buy and you have to meet people where they are in terms of recognizing that this is a big deal for them, and they're putting money on the table, whether it's theirs or their companies, and their nets on the line. So I, I totally agree that we are so dry, so try me to be and we need to spice it up and bring some personality into it. And I'm here for that. In terms of where you are today. Before we get into it, what's, you know, one challenge, obviously, you're looking for a job. I'm sure there's many challenges with that. You're certainly, you know, happy to, you know, wherever your heart sort of leads you today, in this, in this question of, like, what's hard for you right now, what's in your way?

Theresa Potratz 7:06

You know, honestly, when I think of wanting a new role, I'm not scared or concerned, because I really I've got, I'm interviewing right now with six different companies, and I can kind of show you the whole thing. I won't show you the active spreadsheet. I'll pull old data just so I don't out people. But I think the truth is, I'm looking for really two things in a company, and the reason why I'm industry agnostic is because my desires are I want good ish data. If you think your data is great, you're either lying or ignorant. And I want a good team. I want a great team. I want so I want good ish data, and I want a great team. Those are the two things.

Kerry Guard 7:47

How's it been in trying to find, I mean, you're interviewing six companies, which is unbelievable, and are you finding that more often than not you're getting both of those things, or are you waiting out pretty quickly, of like,

Theresa Potratz 7:59

you know, there's, I'm listening to all of the red flags, right? And so before I apply, I'm talking to humans at the companies. And I'm just saying, like, hey, if we were friends, we went to college together, like, would you even tell me to apply? And I am sometimes hearing where the bodies are buried. Sometimes I'm hearing like, you know, we've got our challenges. Here's the things I'm excited about, here's, you know, what I'm looking forward to. Here's how we're going to move forward. But if you go, yeah, the last person lasted 72 hours. I'm not applying. I'm not

Kerry Guard 8:32

72 hours. That's a true story, right there.

Theresa Potratz 8:35

True story. I asked somebody, and she goes, Well, I mean, face to face, coffee, chat. And she goes, I just want you to know that the s or the CEO is who you'd be reporting to, and he, he's been known to micromanage at least for the first six months. But once you earn his trust, you earn his trust. And I was like, Okay, that's a yellow flag. You know, we're red adjacent. And she goes, and I've been told that there is sexism that's rampant in the in the C suite, and I just went and that's the red flag. Thank you so much for your time. You've talked me out. No, no, no, no, we need somebody with your skill set. It's fine. I'm not your human and that's okay.

Kerry Guard 9:15

Wow, how did you Sorry, guys, I'm trying to jump in the gun here. We're here. We're in it. We're going, Yeah, on earth, were you able to get a coffee chat with somebody, to get them to spill that kind of tea with you before you decided to interview? What was that process?

Theresa Potratz 9:32

Honestly, so and this, this really will lead into the entire story where I ask, you know, I don't apply to a single role without having the Coffee Chat without kicking the tire, without looking under the hood or peeking behind the curtain, because my whole thing is, am I going to like it there, right? And so I want to know if you like, if you're a second degree connection, and I get a warm introduction to you, I'm going to say like, Do you like it there? Do you do you. Collaborate with the marketing team. If you're not on the marketing team, what are they like? You know? Because the last thing I want to do, I mean, I've got purple hair, and I live just north of Portland. I'm my own archetype, right? I don't need to be with the buttoned up suits in the room. I'm not going to jive

Kerry Guard 10:20

Walker. Welcome to this show. We have a listener and a comment. He said he got a job rejection this morning, and his wife said, Thank God the glass door. Reviews were abysmal. So yes to the red flags. Red flags matter. That matters, right?

Theresa Potratz 10:35

And don't be afraid of removing your candidacy from your job search. That gives that takes back so much power. When you say, you know, thank you so much for your time, I need to remove my candidacy.

Kerry Guard 10:49

Yeah, and I feel like it's pretty empowering. I have to say, hats off to you Theresa, because in this market, which I know it's it's brutal out there to it. You know, with so many candidates, you would think that you'd want to just try and land anything you possibly could. So to be this vigilant about what you're looking for and know what you're worth is just, ah, I hope people are listening and leaning into this and feeling empowered as well, because it the turnover is so hard on a company. It's even harder on you all. It's so hard to have to leave a company and start over somewhere else. So I love that you're taking the necessary effort to find that right good data ish and the right team. It sounds like you figured out on how to have those coffee chats to figure out if the team is going to be the team and the culture are on the right path. From a data ish standpoint, do you do you use that coffee chat to kick those tires, or is that more through the interview process? Like, how do you validate if they if they're on the right track in terms of their data, you know,

Theresa Potratz 12:02

that's the hard part, right? And so that requires a lot of conversations, so I typically look for just the reddest of flags, okay. If I say, Okay, how is the data hygiene? If they go, it's great. It's never great. If you know data, you always hate your own. You always hate your own because you know, okay, you can do what you need to do, but you know what you need to do to get it better. And if you are on this constant drive to get better data, cleaner data that allows you to do more, I want to be on that team.

Kerry Guard 12:34

I love that. I love you're just looking for the keeping it real. Are you keeping that? Are you keeping it real, I'm going to stay on topic. Maybe we'll have to have another podcast about data, because I could go down that rabbit hole for ages, but I do want to, and actually, you know, your spreadsheets going to lend very nicely into what clean data really means. We're gonna be able to see that firsthand, which I'm excited about. Talk to us about your process. So you mentioned you go for the coffee chat, huh? Well, how

Theresa Potratz 13:02

about I just show my spreadsheet and kind of walk you through the process. Let's see that. Okay, so let me hit this present button, and let's hope that this works as it should. Let's go. Fingers crossed. Okay, can

Kerry Guard 13:20

you see my screen? I can Okay, so

Theresa Potratz 13:24

All right, I threw down my current job search data here. This is an old sheet, just because I wanted to protect the interviewers that I'm currently with and all of that fun stuff. So when I look at my current data from my 2024 job search. Right now, when I submit an application, the chance of me getting an interview is just under 55% and this is a lagging indicator, because it takes time from, you know, pushing out a bunch of applications to allowing the recruiter to actually circle back with you. And so I've gotten a lot of referral links. I just cleaned up all of that, and so that's that's there. Now I also am about 52% in passing a phone screen, but I have four different companies that I'm waiting to hear back because I had a couple of interviews this week. And so again, two lagging indicators. But these numbers keep me honest when I'm in my feels, when I'm thinking, it's the end of days, and I'm just failing. I actually look at the numbers and go, You know what? Objectively, I'm not doing too bad.

Kerry Guard 14:30

I love this because I think when you're on either side, whether you're looking for a job or you're looking for customers right now, for your current clients, or for your for your current brands, it gets it's so easy to get caught up in the Oh no, the revenue is not coming in. The bottom of the funnel is not happening, not getting the job and going back to the data to actually go. Wait, we're okay. Like, yes, we have some work to do. And yes, the bottom of the funnel matters, but in this very moment, based off of these metrics, this is what we can control, and we're okay, yeah, I think that's it's so important to find the things you can control and the reasons to get up in the morning and seeing that data, great, big old dopamine hit, I'm here for it, yep. So what do you take from these, yeah. So what do you take from these leading indicators, and where do you go next?

Theresa Potratz 15:31

So what I do on any given day is I will go to and I think this niche job board, okay, no, it is, it is updated. Okay. So the first thing I do is I look at this is where I started. These are the job boards I was looking at. Now this entire spreadsheet has been on multiple iterations. Somebody, a recruiter, dropped a ton of job boards, and so I threw them in my spreadsheet. And so I haven't verified any of these. I've started to so you'll see some of them are paid everything I do, I use the free version, because there's enough out there. If you put in the sweat equity, I don't think you need to pay, but I will keep everything because I have a variation of the spreadsheet that is a copy that I share freely with others who are searching just to make their lives easier. And that's my goal. I just I trying to sew the good karma exactly where I can, so that when I need it, it's there for me. Now I look at all the roles, I find roles that fit me, and then what I do is I'm going to start over here, and I put a link to the role from the company website. And this is important to me, because job boards are often outdated, but a company is more likely to update their own website. I keep track of the title of the title of the company, or the name of the company, the role. And then this spread, this column is, how am I networking in? How am I getting that referral? Like, who am I chatting with to learn if it's a good fit for me? Right? And then this is the stage of the funnel it's in. Now, this is an again, like this spreadsheet wasn't designed to be cute or pretty or the UX is awful, but originally it was stage one. I didn't apply. I don't use that anymore, which is why it's red. Stage two. That's my true top of funnel. I'm attempting to make contact. So I'm trying to reach somebody there, 2.5 I've gotten an intro to the company. I don't have a referral link yet, so I need to keep working that lead. Three, I've applied. Four, I'm interviewing, and then five is late stage interviews. So now I just sort my spreadsheet, and I start my day at the bottom of the spreadsheet every day. Now you'll notice, like, if you're interviewing with multiple companies simultaneously, you're going to need to figure out a way to keep everybody separate. Think of it as dating multiple people. You don't want to say the wrong name. So I take a ton, a ton of handwritten notes. And I should have affiliate links to this, but I don't. But, oh, let me see, I have a rocket book which has a QR code. So for my handwritten notes, if I'm going into an interview, I take all of my handwritten notes and I open them so that I can say, hey, when I talk to Jordan, this is what you guys said was important when I talked to Ellen. This is the priorities that she had. And then, you know, these were other conversations I've had with members of the team. Let's talk about this. Let's double click in, and that way I'm able to have very deep, in depth conversations about what matters to the company. Now, I only touch a lead once a week, right? I don't want to burn my leads out. So again, this is super old data, but you'll see, here's when the interviews are scheduled and here's when my follow ups are due. So I start every day. The bottom of thing, I only spend one to two hours on the spreadsheet a day, Max. And the reason is, if I spend too much, I have too many interviews in a week, or I sound really desperate, neither of those I want now, because I'm going for multiple offers. That's my job is to try to get competing offers. I keep track of the total compensation, right? The role, does the title meet my expectations? Because that's a negotiation lever. Is it remote? Because if it's hybrid or in office, there's a financial component that counts against the salary. What's the salary? What's the bonus? What are the additional benefits? And you better believe that I math it out. And if you're making me come to the office and I'm paying for transportation or additional childcare or whatnot, I am putting a negative against your salary. So when you say, well, we're offering 162 are you? Because my net is really blank, and then you have a more frank conversation with your recruiter. I'm like, you know, here's the thing. I'm expecting another offer. This is their thing. I'll know in a couple of days. If you get me to x, or we change the title, or we do these things, then I'm going to sign right now. But if not, I'm gonna need to wait a couple days. Questions, comments so far. Yeah.

Kerry Guard 19:59

Oh my gosh, the negotiation skills and that alone, like that's to know that you have. I mean, this is the power of being able to do it this way, right? Because you can get multiple interviews and multiple offers and then be able to use those to your to your benefit that way. And I think so many times again, coming back to what we can control, of being afraid of, like not getting the job and not really leading into what we're worth. We tend to just take whatever's, well, the job market's really hard, and I want to make sure I get this job, and so I'll take whatever they give me, and I'll do the commute, and it'll hurt, but, like, I just, I just need to get the thing, you know what you're worth, you're capable of, you know what you're going to bring to the table. So for you to be able to say, here's what I need, here's the levers we can pull, and then to use the I'm waiting for another potential offer to get them to move faster, is just like, Are you a marketer? Are you a salesperson? I don't know the difference, right? You

Theresa Potratz 21:01

know? But the thing is, we all need to be our own sales persons, right? We all need to understand who we are, because you will do better it. You will come from a position of strength, if you understand all of these things, and you will, you will execute at a higher level, both during the job or in your personal life, or wherever. So it all. I think iron sharpens iron. And I think, you know, there's just this fly wheel that we can do for our mental health, our professional health, the whole nine now, because I am a demand gen growth marketer, because I only want to spend one to two hours a day on this, I don't want to reinvent the wheel. I don't want to rewrite the same message over and over again, so I have scripts. Now if you're in the moms in tech networking group, you guys are fantastic. You know who you are. I have my own way to talk with you, you guys, and I have shorthand you do for me. I do for you. Now here's a cool thing, if you are posting once a day on LinkedIn, and you are commenting on at least 10 humans posts every day with very, you know, robust, conversational starting topics, and the whole nine, you rank higher in the algorithms. Recruiters are more likely to reach out to you. Now, the recruiters who reach out to you varying degrees of quality there you're going to get the Wow. Your background is great. I was looking at you, and you can tell by the number of profile views whether or not they actually looked we should talk, because I have a roll open, considering they've probably sent that message to 50 to 100 humans with similar backgrounds. I come at them with this message, and it for me, it sums it up. It talks about my citizenship status, what I'm looking for, you know, both salary, band and level, and I hit send. I'm reducing comm cycles. I

Kerry Guard 22:51

think that's really important. Because I do know that there's some folks who like won't comment, or afraid to be mentioned in comments, because then they're afraid of the recruiter onslaught that follows up with this. So I think, not reducing your visibility because you are afraid of that, but being open to the fact that this is just what's going to happen, and being prepared to navigate that in a really easy, intentional way, I think, is is awesome, because, yeah, it's that, that sales side dealing with recruiters I am at I can be exhausting, so just having a quick way to get that out of the way is scripts great, and I don't reduce your visibility because you're afraid of that. This is a great way to lean into it.

Theresa Potratz 23:37

And now I know there's going to be markers on the call, or humans that are listening to this that are much smarter than I am, I have a failed test. Now, I labeled it a failed test, and I kept it here, because when I am honest with myself, and that's the only way we can grow, I would probably reach out to Kerry and be like, Kerry, oh my gosh, we know a ton of great people like Leanne in common, and if you're friends with Leanne, you're going to be great friends with me, and there's a role at your company that there's a role at your company that I'm interested in, and Kerry doesn't care. Kerry is going to ignore and click the I don't know this person, right, but what I have found is, if I say, hey Leanne, can you introduce me to Kerry? Kerry, sounds fantastic. Then Kerry is going to give me a warm introduction, or Leanne's giving me a warm introduction to Kerry, and now I'm able to have a better relationship, and you'll be like, hey, Kerry, can now that you and I know that we have mutual humans, and that'll vouch for me. Can we have a coffee chat just 15 minutes? Right roll at your company. I want to learn about the culture, and that's the truth. And during that call, I'm going to say, what, what is it like? How gets the data? What are struggles that you have? What are goals that you have? You know, where do you see the company struggling to hit those goals, or what could distract them? And then the last two questions are, if we were friends, would you suggest me applying? And that's where you wait for the yes, no, and then, okay, you know what? You say yes, that you would suggest. It. I know that many companies have referral bonuses. I could apply blindly, or I could give you the benefit of getting that referral bonus. If I'm hired, could you give me a referral link, and now I've incentivized you to help me, and that's how I get those blessed referral links.

Kerry Guard 25:23

Oh my gosh, back door. I think the coffee chats really interesting. And that, do you have any data on how often people will take those chats with you? I mean, do you just a gut feeling like, do people generally say yes to those? Or do you find that you get shut down a lot?

Theresa Potratz 25:39

I've only gotten shut down once in this last job search. If you're communicating with me, it's a very high probability that we're going to have a coffee chat, extremely high. And then whether or not I hit you up for referral link, that depends on our conversation.

Kerry Guard 25:59

Sure. No. I think that makes a ton of sense. And people just, I think the beauty of the coffee chat is it's so low pressure, and it's not about you. You get to just to get them to talk all about themselves and the company and it there's no light on you yet in terms of, like, being interviewed, right? Just a chance to learn about and and to show your interest, right? When you sit there with curiosity and you're asking them about themselves, that actually is puts you in a really good light of this person seems really interested, and they might be really good for this role, if this is how they show up every day, right? So it just, it's a wonderful way to create connection and and rate that people say yes to that. Of doing these coffee chats, how long you know, really, is it like 20 minutes? Is it an hour? How long you have? I

Theresa Potratz 26:49

asked for 15, you know, and most of the time I'm very like, hey, you know, you agreed to 15. We're approaching that time. I want to be considerate of it. Now, if they have more to share and all of that, then that gives me the opportunity like, you know, actually, I've got time, but the last thing you want to do is to have just cornered somebody in a Zoom meeting and, you know, really held them hostage. That doesn't bode well. They're not likely to go champion your candidacy. So I try to be very honoring.

Kerry Guard 27:22

I love that. Okay, so,

question from somebody who's asking if it's possible to share the list of niche job boards.

Theresa Potratz 27:36

Yeah, I actually have a copy of the spreadsheet, the leads, the niche job boards, the compensation page, all the scripts I use, and I'll share those and chat GPT prompts, and I share it with gobs of people. Like I've literally done a full webinar on this before where I had at least 80 people on the call, and I make it available for them to share with others. So there's hundreds of people with this spreadsheet.

Kerry Guard 28:04

Awesome. We'll get that off to you guys. Do you want? Do you want to send it via DMS? Do you want to just how do you want people to grab it from you? Oh,

Theresa Potratz 28:10

gosh, you know what I'll do is I will hit Share. I'll put this in the chat between you and I, and I will empower you that way. If people hit you up and I'm open on LinkedIn right, like you want to connect, connect like I'm here for it, especially if you're like, hey, give me that spreadsheet I got you. Hook

Kerry Guard 28:30

a sister up. Love it. We got another question here. My gosh, pouring in this is so great. Someone wants to know. Sorry I can't see your picture, but I appreciate you. They want to know any thoughts on chat groups like pavilion or rev genius, I'm assuming they're talking about when you're looking for a job and job boards, if, if those are viable,

Theresa Potratz 28:49

yeah. I mean, I'm in so many slack groups to varying degrees of Lurker versus like, active member. I honestly think it's going to be the humans who know you kind of loosely are going to do more to increase your candidacy than people whom you're super close with, right? You can reach out to people you've worked with for years and years, and they might have busy lives or a stigma, and you might think you owe me. I helped you move twice, you know? And they're going to be like, You know what? I can't help right now, but it's going to be those looser connections. We're going to be like, Hey, I saw this role. Thought of you said, saw this role. Thought of you said, hey, you need to talk to so and so, here's the hidden job you didn't know about. Like, those things are going to be great. So posting in those groups, showing up organically, showing up to help. If you say, Hey, I saw you had a problem, I can help you. I'm not asking for anything. It's going to take five minutes. I can just help you figure it out. Untie this knot, move on.

Kerry Guard 29:54

This does seem to be a pattern in how you show up, just in the world in terms of the No. Of paying it forward and becoming that circle of influence is that, just like

Theresa Potratz 30:12

fair, I'm so sorry I couldn't quite hear you broke up during that. Can you repeat it? There just

Kerry Guard 30:19

seems to be this natural way that you operate, in terms of the paying it forward notion, like not expecting anything in return, and creating sort of this circle of influence. And it sounds like if you're going to show up to these chat room these chat areas and groups, that's sort of the notion you need to step into with it. I feel the same way. You know, if you're looking to get something from these people, that's not really the right mentality to show up in any social space. Really, it's more about, how can I contribute? What value can I bring? And you know, in helping others, it will come back to you, not necessarily from those people. I always find it to be that way. I don't know about Hi Theresa, but it's not necessarily. I don't find it come back to me necessarily, from the exact person that I helped, but because I paid it forward to them, and they paid it forward to somebody else, it circles back around in a really lovely way over time. But it's not an immediate payoff.

Theresa Potratz 31:15

Yeah, it's, it's the long game.

Kerry Guard 31:20

Yeah. Okay.

Theresa Potratz 31:21

So any other questions or, I mean, because I can, I can keep going,

Kerry Guard 31:26

well, I'll keep hanging out here in chat see if anybody else pops in. But I think we've answered the question so far. Let's keep moving in terms of, you're on your scripts. So yes, you talked about what not to do, yeah, for the scripts on what we should be doing.

Theresa Potratz 31:39

Oh, yeah. So you've gotten the referral link, you've applied. Now, if you're able to identify the hiring manager or recruiter, send a connect request on LinkedIn with a note. Now the goal is not to connect with them, and this sounds so counter intuitive. And if you send it with a note, you can say, hey, hiring manager, I applied to this role. Here's, you know, kind of the why you should talk to me. And nine out of 10 times they're not going to hit Accept, and that's okay, because you don't necessarily want them to like, if they do fantastic, right? I'm not going to say like, actively try to avoid that. Your goal is to get them to look at your profile. Your goal is to get them to look at your resume. And if you're able to whet that appetite, this is the time to do it. And then the next one is so you have a the interview, and then you have a week of silence. The very next thing I do is I this script was given word for word from a recruiter who posted a tick tock. The recruiter was from Google. They're like, here's how you follow up. Don't do I just wanted to be proactive. I just wanted to check in, take out. Just it's passive aggressive. Come at it from a position of strength. And then, you know, like, roll come up with a reason that you know you thought of them. Include a gift. Like, include your personality in this. But this basically being the overall thing. Obviously, if it's not Friday, don't say Friday. Now, these next two, I'm gonna be completely honest, they are chat GPT generated. It's not my best look, but I'm gonna own it, and I'm gonna show you the lot the holes in my own logic. My thoughts are, first off, I didn't care when I got to this point, and my thoughts were, if we've had two or three weeks of silence, I don't know if the recruiter truly cares what I wrote, just that I checked in. And since at the time when I had these generated, my brain was like, I just can't. I just can't, but I need to do something. So this is the good enough button. Eventually I will rewrite those. Today is not the day.

Kerry Guard 33:50

I think that's so key, because a lot of times people don't actually read these emails. They're just, again, to your point, just looking that you even checked in. And if that much silence has gone on, chances are it's a it's a hopeful, not a definite right. I think that first message is definitely more important. And what I love that you said, and I want to double down on, is the passive aggressive language, coming back to again what you're worth and knowing what you bring to the table, and not shying away from trying to be that people pleasing, just checking in, if you're okay with it. Would you mind? Sort of language, it's just being like, here's what's happened. You know, here's what, here's what I'm looking for. Yep, we had this interview. Are we ready to move forward? Let's go.

Theresa Potratz 34:35

Do we have alignment? Yes, no. Now here

Kerry Guard 34:42

question on that, yeah, in terms of the nose, do you find the nose just as helpful as Yes, as I find that people are being ghosted, left, right and center, are you getting nose or are you getting ghosted? Yes, and

Theresa Potratz 34:55

and. So if I can go through all three weeks and I don't hear from. You. I move you to my elephant graveyard at the top my spreadsheet. I move on. I don't have time for you. Thank you. Next.

Kerry Guard 35:08

So you take the you take the no answer as a no. If

Theresa Potratz 35:11

we go a full three weeks radio silence, there's not alignment, because you would not treat me the way I want to be treated, period. Yes. Now I haven't gone so far as to say, hey, it's been a month since we chatted. I'm removing my candidacy. I just I take no answer as an answer, and I mentally move you to the top of my sheet, and I don't look at you, and when you circle back, I go, what happened? We need to have a conversation about this. Now, if the hiring manager had some kind of awful thing happen, or there were extenuating circumstances, I would like to know that as well. But if you can't give me a good reason, maybe we don't have alignment

Kerry Guard 35:56

lots of flags to read in the no answer, I love that. And then for you to not just because they showed back up doesn't mean you should jump right on in. So yes to that, yes. All right, close this out here with your scripts. What you got? Okay, so

Theresa Potratz 36:17

there's really I'll do this last chunk now. I haven't done this yet. Now you can get a free HubSpot account. I have a free HubSpot account. I've done that much. What I plan on doing this is kind of my junk drawer is getting a list of startups that are Series B or greater, that have fundraised last 90 days. And then I want to go through that list, and anybody who doesn't have a function for a demand gen, highlight them, and then find the email address, CTO, CMO. C You know, EO, and then come up with a drip campaign. Hey, I see you don't have a demand. Gen, what a coincidence. I'm free agent. Let's connect, and then let it mark it for me. But this last tab, this tab right here, is probably my favorite, when you are looking for a job, let's say you're looking at a new industry or a different company, right? You can ask chat GPT or your AI of choice, what are the challenges that company or that industry faces, and then use those responses in your cover letter, keep it open for your phone screen about how you naturally overcome those it shows alignment, and it shows you where those transferable skills are. This next one, super critical, right? When you have an ATS that grades your resume against the job, you can say, here's the job description, here's the resume. Show me where I fit, where I don't fit, and then it'll kick out this. It'll say, here's what you have experience in doing, and then here's where you have no experience. And you can look at this, you go, Wait a minute, I've actually done these things. Well, here's the specific wording you need to update on your resume.

Kerry Guard 37:54

That's amazing. And I think there's a couple things I want to I want to double down on this here. One is, I think the personalization is key, because there are those systems out there that easily weed people out. I don't know if you read this story, I think it went out around on Reddit where somebody they were getting like the these candidates that weren't fitting at all, and so the person who was actually in the role submitted his resume, yeah, and they, they didn't accept it, and the entire HR team, like the entire recruitment team, got fired from that company, right? Because, like, you

Theresa Potratz 38:30

should have caught that

Kerry Guard 38:32

yeah, yeah. So I think being really critical of your resume to make sure it actually touches on those points, you way to use chat GPT to make that life easier is fantastic. I also want to call out because we're women here, and as women looking for jobs, chat, we have our own challenges. How are you approaching that notion of the 80% role? So it there's data to show that men will apply for a role when they're like 75 80% qualified and not fully where women feel like they can't apply for a role unless they 100% feel like they can do it. Where are you sort of in that realm?

Theresa Potratz 39:08

I mean, I'm closer to the 80 90% like I need to match, right? But if I have a great coffee chat where I'm like, Okay, this role seems close enough, and I have a coffee chat, and the person I connect with just mirrors my soul, and I go, Oh, we could be besties. Then I'm more likely to overcome that sense of hesitation.

Kerry Guard 39:33

Yeah, it's the it's the the imposter syndrome at all, though. But if you have a good, strong team behind you. You all can overcome it together. I love coffee chats. We keep coming back to the coffee chat. It feels right like such a critical moment in this whole process, as we keep talking. Go ahead. My goal

Theresa Potratz 39:55

is to have three coffee chats a week. The interviews will. Come, the applications will come. I want three coffee chats because that will increase my network, that will increase my candidacy, that will increase the quality of my life.

Kerry Guard 40:14

Demand, Gen right here we are unpacking how to get after building your funnel with the best case study possible. So many times we're looking for those, those demos and and that revenue, and what great leading indicators, then a top of funnel metric, like a coffee chat. Yeah, this is not a demo request yet, folks, this is no we're getting to know each other, and is there opportunity here? And how many of those getting to know each other moments do I need to know that the revenue will come, to know that the the interview and the job will come? So for you, it's three coffee chats a week. Yep,

Theresa Potratz 41:00

that's it. That's That's it. Like, everything in a nutshell,

Kerry Guard 41:05

yeah, is there anything in terms of, let's say you have, you know, let's say the follow up is happening and they are starting to have conversation with you, and things are going in the right direction. Is there anything you do, like, if you're really excited about a role, is there any little extra, anything you do to try and keep the keep the conversation alive, as you're like, in between moments, or you know that they might be looking at other candidates, and you have to just sort of wait a minute, assuming they're being transparent.

Theresa Potratz 41:39

I mean, I might try to continue to network with people outside of the hiring panel, you know, to continue looking, or I might just go, okay, you know, I've done all I can. I'm putting the pause there, and I'm going to continue to work on other opportunities. And in a completely transparent moment, there was a moment during this recent job search, I let my funnel dry up. I got so excited about a role, it got super close. And ultimately, despite, you know, being a very strong candidate, I got second place in the beauty contest. So I didn't quite make it to that, that offer round. So with that, it was, you know, I'm not necessarily going to over invest in in a single role. I need to keep filling that funnel, because if I don't, I've wasted valuable time.

Kerry Guard 42:34

This is so key, not for both, like I said, but so beautiful in this conversation. Why I was so looking forward to it is, it's a wonderful case study for how to do Japan, right, and to help people find their next gig in a really intentional way of focusing on what they can control in the process, because there's so much it bits out of our hands. But what I love about this is shoot my kids are home, but I lost my train thrill life happening right here, folks as it goes. I just really love the power of how demand gen really can work, and how we need to think about it differently, and that if that there it is, if we lose sight of our top of funnel and our brand, and we are so focused on that bottom of funnel and revenue to this point, such a great example of how your funnel will dry up. And then you have to go all the way back to the beginning. How long did it take you to build up that top of funnel? Once you realized, oh no,

Theresa Potratz 43:40

I can drive leads. Well, it was a week of morning and I'll be I'll own it. It was a week of me just, you know, under a weighted blanket with some hot tea, and just allowing myself to let go of my dreams for that role, and just going, okay, you know what? You're in your feels, and that's fine. And then it was like probably another two or two and a half weeks, truly, of like getting the coffee chats, getting them going to start, seeing the interviews come back, and it's hard. It's hard to do that, especially when you talk about trying to come at things from a position of strength, and when you don't feel it and you've got to fake it. That's tough. And so that's when you're doing more chats with other job searchers, where you're lifting each other up, you're sending each other memes, you're sending each other tiktoks, you know? Like, that's part of this as well. I

Kerry Guard 44:33

think that's where the chat rooms come in, right? So the rev genius, I am part of marketing women. If you're part of that group. They're amazing. Go check them out. Another group that's just like when you're having it, you don't feel like you have the energy, and you just need people to bond together with who are all you know, multiple people who are going through the same situation. I think that's really what those communities are about. And if you that's the way to definite. Really lean into them when you're trying to work through some of these hard situations of finding a new job or working through something that's hard in marketing, or whatever the case may be. That is the real power of those communities. I think, yes, you know, job opportunities and those sort of you know moments might come, but walking into those communities with more attention around being part of finding finding people who are in the same boat is absolutely the way to think about those I talked to you for hours, Theresa, I'm so grateful for this conversation. There's so much more I want to unpack with you, just in terms of marketing and how much we could learn from you as a whole. Thank you so much for jumping on with me last minute. I What an honor before we go. Is there any last piece of advice you have for folks who are in the same boat with you in that moment, to leave them with a feeling, you know, pulling up their bootstraps, right, continuing on another day,

Theresa Potratz 45:58

literally come at it from a systematic approach. Whatever system you choose, right? It's going to be whatever works for you, but be consistent with it. And next only do an hour or two a day, that's it. And then go out and bake cookies, garden, clean your house, do things that fill you up, because right now, you have more time available to you than you will ever have when you're employed. So volunteer to your kids school, go, like, deliver meals to needy people, like, do what you can to help to fill your cup, so that when you have that call, you've got the dopamine, you've got the oxytocin, flowing freely,

Kerry Guard 46:38

yes, so that take, take this moment to take care of you. You've earned it, you've earned it. You're allowed, and it's okay, and it's great. I love that. If you would like to follow up with Theresa, you can definitely find her on LinkedIn. We are going to drop her link to let me figure that out. Maybe, maybe DM me either drop, drop a comment in the chat to say you want the spreadsheet, and I'll send it to you, or just hit me up in DMS and I'll send it to you that way, however, whatever is easier for you guys,

Theresa Potratz 47:12

or hit me up too. I'm, I'm here to make friends. Yeah, yeah.

Kerry Guard 47:16

We'll get you the sheet. Let us know you want it, and we'll, we'll get it over to you also let us know what you're looking for, so we can keep our eyes peeled for it as well, anywhere else they can find you. Theresa, oh

Theresa Potratz 47:28

gosh, I'm on Tiktok, but my Tiktok presence is not professional, and so it's not under my name, but it's t, w, I, G, l, i, o, t, and it's just going to be crazy history stories.

Kerry Guard 47:44

Yes, she has a podcast. I

Theresa Potratz 47:46

too, I have the unhinged History podcast. So if you're looking for a distraction and who isn't in this world, let's say you want to learn about female gangs in London, which is an episode we recorded last night. It'll come out in December. Or, let's say you want to learn about the Dublin whiskey fire, where a river of whiskey flew through the streets, and it was incredible. Or the molasses flood. Or like, oh gosh, a samurai that came from the Sudan, and there is a black African samurai from 1580 something, and his story about how he was an absolute badass. We've got, we've got all kinds of crazy things.

Kerry Guard 48:30

Tune into that. Yes, oh yeah. So good. Definitely tune in to unhinged history. I will be doing the same before we go Theresa, you are more than a marketer. You're more than somebody who's looking for their next job closing out the year for 2024 heading into 2025 I think we all need a bit of joy right now.

Theresa Potratz 48:50

Yeah,

Kerry Guard 48:51

so what's bringing you joy

Theresa Potratz 48:54

You know that's part of the reason why I have the History podcast. Is so my friend and I have a timed session every week where we hang out together and we just tell each other the crazy things we're learning by ourselves in our own closets. And it's like, oh my gosh. Did you know that they're the history of war elephants? And you're like, No. It's like, okay, well, buckle up.

Kerry Guard 49:18

Oh, it's amazing. I you know, putting time on the calendar of your best date and anyway, is always a wonderful place to find joy. I just had my best friend here a few weeks ago, and we just there was crazy chaos. She brought a three year old, and we just laughed through the chaos of surviving in another country. Well, you know, with your children, so great. I love that. Theresa. I'm so grateful for this conversation. I'm so grateful to everybody who showed up in the comments. If you are listening to this asynchronously and you have questions, please ask we'll be paying attention. We'll be following along, and we'll get back to you for sure. So don't be afraid, even though you missed this live. Safe to chime back on in. We're grateful you're here.

If you like this episode, please like, subscribe and share this episode was brought to you by mkg marketing, the digital market agency that helps complex brands get found via SEO and digital ads, hosted by me Kerry Garcia and co founder of mkg marketing, Music Mix and mastering, done by snappy and if you like to be a guest, if you are looking for a job and you're in the marketing space, I would love to have you on and to help you out and finding your nice thing. Let's do it. Let's partner together. Let's make it happen. Thank you all so much. Theresa, thank you again. Applause.