Evan Patterson on Founder-Led Marketing in the Age of AI

Overview:

Evan Patterson joins the show to explore how founder-led marketing can cut through today’s AI-saturated landscape. He shares why conviction can’t be outsourced, how personal branding fuels demand, and why authenticity always beats polish. From using AI as a tool—not a crutch—to helping founders show up online with consistency and clarity, Evan delivers real-world insights for marketers and founders looking to grow with trust and transparency.

Transcript:

Kerry Guard 0:00

Minutes over. Well, we are, ah, we are live, okay. LinkedIn. Was out there, folks. It had a little like yellow, not going to go live on the LinkedIn sign. I was like, You're kidding me? Like, come on, man, we're eight minutes over. It's not getting the world. We needed a minute, although you all wish you heard that conversation.

Evan Patterson 0:19

Most people need a minute with me. Anyways, I need a minute. I need to imagine life.

Kerry Guard 0:25

The universe, everything.

Evan Patterson 0:26

Yeah, release the absolute fast anyway. I have to take any opportunity I can. On a soapbox to say that, like that's my new thing now, I'm going to take any opportunity I can, no matter how inappropriate. I even said at my dentist while they were working on my teeth.

Kerry Guard 0:49

No, we're here for the state of comedy, right? Like you're here with that comment.

Kerry Guard 1:00

Well, I mean, LinkedIn needs to, you know, get a personality. So we're here for it, although you got plenty of spades. Evan, that's what this is gonna make this so glorious. I do have real, actual business questions, folks. We are just warming up. Giving you all a minute to join us if you are here, like I said, comment below. I'm not kidding. I want to know the last thing you told your dentist. Let's hear that. I think it was that.

Evan Patterson 1:27

I think it was that. So here's the thing, when I go to the dentist, so I have autism and I have ADHD, so I get really over-sensitized. They and I request like that. They, you know, like, when you have, like, a little kid goes and they need, like, that laughing gas stuff to keep them calm. I'm that 31 year old that still gets drugged up at the dentist, even if it's just a routine cleaning, because I will be so over sensitized, and I'll struggle to, like, sit still, and afterwards I'll feel like I've been hit by a bus, if I don't get all of that, so I don't have much memory, actually, of what I say.

Kerry Guard 2:06

Oh, wow, let's record it. Next time, it'll be like that, Charlie. What was that video, that meme that went around with the kid coming out of the dentist? I was so good.

Evan Patterson 2:16

Oh, Charlie, bit my finger. Bit My Finger. I don't remember if it was, if that was related to the dentist, but we are aging ourselves. Oh yeah, everybody under like 27 has no idea what we're talking.

Kerry Guard 2:29

They're not, they're not here anyway. They're not my audience. It's all, it's all about the millennials.

Evan Patterson 2:37

I know we're sounding like boomers right now.

Kerry Guard 2:41

Okay, I'm going to totally share my age. Somebody asked me yesterday, we were talking at, I was at tennis, and we are having a drink afterwards, and we were talking about gaming consoles. And I was like, oh, yeah, my first gaming console, which I still think is, like, probably one of the top best consoles, was the original Nintendo. He was like, original Nintendo. I was like, Yeah, before the Super Nintendo, he's like, Super Nintendo is like, Nintendo before there was two other consoles. Yeah, he's like, so how you know, how's your 40th birthday gonna be? I was like, Yeah, you totally hit that one on the head. Well done, sir. That is, I could, yeah, tell people's age by what console that they are talking about.

Evan Patterson 3:28

I usually use phones, but like so I am what is called by certain generational psychologists and anthropologists as a millennial, because I'm on the younger end of millennial. And sometimes millennials will say things that I don't quite relate to or get because I was ever so slightly too young for and then I'll lean towards the Gen Z side of things. But then Gen Z will say something, and I'm like, I don't get it. So it's like, eat on the cusp of two generations, where it's like, I know I'm like, 60% millennial is how it feels most of the time. Because if I ask a millennial, when you think of Britney Spears, what's the first song that comes to mind? Mine is a work bitch.

Kerry Guard 4:15

That was a later album. Wasn't it?

Evan Patterson 4:19

Or, like, till the world ends, or something. Like, that's her, like, later stuff, yeah, like, host shaving head era, yeah, yeah, yeah, and then Gen Z's like, I don't think I know. So that's how I know I'm, like, on that weird cusp, because, like, my first cell phone was a flip phone razor, but in sixth grade.

Kerry Guard 4:43

Oh, hey. Oh, yeah, my first phone was in high school, and it was a flip phone, a Razor, but it was high school. You're my sister's age, so that, yeah, I'm the other side. I'm an elder millennial.

Evan Patterson 4:55

Yeah, my sister's an elder millennial. So she, she and I have this debate often. Yeah, okay. Like she feels like she relates to sometimes Gen X stuff also. So, yeah, yeah, same.

Kerry Guard 5:07

And then sometimes I feel really young compared to Gen X when they like, Yeah.

Evan Patterson 5:13

Speaking of marketing, I know I'm a millennial because I buy things based on the packaging, and then realize I like the product in that order. Yes, I bought this coffee non-spot based on the packaging.

Kerry Guard 5:26

I totally I will not buy something because of the packaging.

Evan Patterson 5:29

Yeah, I will buy an inferior product because it looks Yeah.

Kerry Guard 5:36

I love going to the toothpaste aisle because all the packaging is just slightly different. So I have options, even though the product is exactly the same, yeah.

Evan Patterson 5:46

yeah. Shout out to Hello. My favorite toothbrush, toothpaste, brand that I bought solely because the packaging is aesthetically pleasing.

Kerry Guard 5:55

Yeah, it matters. It matters.

Evan Patterson 5:57

That's why I bought a toothbrush, because it looks better than a Phillips.

Kerry Guard 6:04

I have a pink toothbrush. I was determined. I was like, I want this one. That's not a brand name, because it's pink, and that's what I want. My life is a pink toothbrush.

Evan Patterson 6:12

So you market to millennials.

Kerry Guard 6:16

Design matters. I can't, like, I'm so grateful to have hired a design firm, and like, actually, because I was of yesterday. Oh, you say you start, you got started as of yesterday. So tomorrow, have time to mess it up. Well, tomorrow you'll get your first design. So you'll get to really see whether you know, 40-hour turnaround, baby. I'm here for it.

Evan Patterson 6:42

Yeah, but I also forgot to put in the brief yesterday.

Kerry Guard 6:49

Like Tuesday, if you're lucky.

Unknown Speaker 6:51

I'm really good at this.

Kerry Guard 6:55

Chat will help you out with just tell them. Just tell them all the things and do a big paragraph, and then chat will fill it in for you.

Evan Patterson 7:03

It'll be fine. I'd say I would hire an assistant, but I also know me, like, I'm like the kid in the group project in school that just goes, let me do it myself. I don't trust new people.

Kerry Guard 7:13

I was that kid. No, I'm on only child. I have total only child syndrome, and so group projects were not, were not my thing. I just basically did the work because I just.

Evan Patterson 7:23

I also have ADHD, so no one gets it done. So it's a, it's a double-edged sword, of like, it's a very ineffective control freak.

Kerry Guard 7:37

Yeah, but for me, it always got done. But it was like, at the, you know, the top of the hour.

Evan Patterson 7:41

Like, usually, too, I need deadlines or nothing gets done.

Kerry Guard 7:48

Yeah, yeah, same, same, and don't bother giving me a deadline a month from now. Like, you really need to, like, the 48, I think that's why I really love the 48-hour turnaround. Because I need, like, I need the 40 I need that deadline .

Evan Patterson 8:03

Yeah, I was it. I have a lot of friends there, drag queens, and they often say that they're like a liquid. If you give them six hours to get ready, they'll take the six-hour container, you know, to get ready, yeah, if you get them two hours, they'll find a way to get the exact same result done, but in two hours, that's how I feel.

Kerry Guard 8:26

I mean, we talked last year, last few years ago.

Evan Patterson 8:32

Yeah, yeah. It's a while ago.

Kerry Guard 8:34

Times have changed. You are you're doing a whole new thing now. Why don't you tell us what you're up to give us an update.

Evan Patterson 8:40

Someone tell me when you all find out. Let me know. I've been focused on two types of work, primarily fractional marketing leadership and personal branding, and mostly ghost writing, personal CMO approach. And I've also been like, you know, I still love my B to B, SAS girlies and all that, but I've been my guess, like my new bread and butter that I've been finding a lot of, not just success in, but also personal fulfillment and interest in, is in, like, professional services consultant firms, custom solutions firms. I kind of accidentally fell into that world about two to three years ago through a client of mine named Ben Mansfield, and he owns Terra Rasa Impact Advisors. And since then, I've just realized, like, Okay, I like these people. They I like this space. Nothing against VC-backed startups, but there's just something there's a very different culture in that industry, in that space, and for some reason, I'm just a lot more compatible with it.

Kerry Guard 9:49

That's awesome. Hey, way to find like. I feel like it's so much easier to work on a brand when you actually A really like the people and B believe in what it is you're doing. So hats off to you for finding both.

Evan Patterson 10:04

Yeah, I think it's one step further than that. Even also it's just, it's their approach to business. I think when you're selling a service that's not a like your SaaS, it is a product that functions as a Service, these people aren't selling products. They're selling services like straight-up, pure services, right? So they know that they're getting hired by people that trust them to do what they do best, whether that is because they don't have the time to do it, the know-how the do it, or the know-how to do it. So you can imagine that it's very easy in the flip side, when they hire somebody, they have that same ethos, where, in the SAS world, that does not exist. No, yeah, as much as people in SAS claim it does, it doesn't, at least not it's or its not the norm. And I have really appreciated that about the service, the professional services. The other thing about professional services is no amount of funding, no amount of marketing, will fix whether or not you're good at it. We're in the SaaS world. You could have an a genuinely mediocre product and be in kill the competition because you had great connections and were able to get a $10 million seed round, you know some and be overvalued in every potential way, where, in this role, it doesn't matter who you know, what you know completely. It still matters to some degree. But at the end of the day, if you're not good at it, it won't last.

Kerry Guard 11:35

Are you on the B-to-B or B-to-C side?

Evan Patterson 11:40

I'm on B to B. These are all B to B. My clients are all B to B. And I've also focused more on people that their average deal size is like five figures and up on a monthly basis. That's been the other trick. SaaS is not right now, and with the way the economy is, marketing is the is like the if not HR, it's the second thing of the chopping block at most SaaS companies, yeah, we're professional, and then they wonder why their pipeline dries up. Came from professional services, does not seem to be doing that. And a pro tip to any freelance marketers out there, find a company where, after one to two sales, are already profitable.

Kerry Guard 12:21

Paying for yourself.

Evan Patterson 12:24

Yeah, because that way you can charge 20, $30,000 a month and nobody balks at it, because at that point you're just, it's basic math. Yeah, I didn't get better or more valuable. I just focused on an audience that can afford to pay me correctly.

Kerry Guard 12:39

I mean, that's half the battle, three-quarters of the battle. I mean, that's, I think we're all in sort of trying to figure that out, though it's interesting. Why did you go, you know, what made you go fractional and off on your own, versus trying to find a full-time gig?

Evan Patterson 12:57

Mental Health, mainly, honestly, I know that can kind of be the woo, woo answer to some people, but when I worked in startups in the past, where I was very happy, I was kind of treated like, you know, like, Oh, you're like, the jobs I've ever been happy, I was trusted. They got out of my way. They knew what I was good at, and they set me up for success, and they were there when I needed them, but they got out of my way. And let me cook, you know, let me do what I need to do, but let me do what I do best. We'll all win here, and I, in my head, even before I was self-employed full-time, you know, I've always had some sort of side hustle going on. I always treated my boss or my employer like my client, because at the end of the day, it's not about doing your job well. It's about making your boss's job easier. That was what I was taught very early on by my parents. You know, the best way to move up in the world is figure out how your job impacts everybody else around you, and that is the definition of being good at your job, not whatever they tell you. The definition of being good at your job is in the JV, and that would create friction, you know, because I, because that's that, that also meant that I was also the person that would go like, that's not going to work, or this isn't how this works. Or, you know, so when you're a W2 employee, you're often expected in these places to fall in line, you know and, and do what Mr. CEO says. And, and it's not that I'm being in support in it. It's, I'm sorry, I thought you paid me to tell the truth. And I'm saying that from where I'm seated, that's not going to work, and here's evidence as to why. And I'm going to sound so egotistical and cocky, but I have yet to be proven wrong in 31 years on this earth. Every time that has happened in business, at least, there are times in my life I've been wrong, but that's not one of the times I've been wrong. Yeah, and so by being self-employed, I was I noticed I was able to curate more experiences like the positive ones that I had. Because, for some reason, the minute you go from 10, from W2 to 1099, people treat you completely differently. The interviews are a lot more collaborative. They're not even interviews, really. They are more, how can we work together? It's more like dating, which I which is dating sucks, but I would rather it be that versus this. Like I never understood why Job interviews are a, why should we hire you, and not a why should we work together? Conversation? Yeah, it never made sense to me why I have to earn the job, and then it's my turn to ask if I want to work there. That's not how that works. Why is it you then me?

Kerry Guard 15:52

Yeah, welcome,

Evan Patterson 15:55

Yeah, so, so let's make a long story short, it was really to curate a life that I wanted and work on things and with people that I like. Look forward to logging in on to every day.

Kerry Guard 16:10

You said you kind of fell into the audience three years ago. Did you try other audiences before that? What was sort of the I would, I would say, based off of our conversation, and we're going to sort of pull back the onion here in a second, but I would say you are currently being you're very successful in what you're doing, but we know that didn't happen overnight. So, can you share with us, sort of the before journey, before you found this audience in the sweet spot?

Evan Patterson 16:36

Yeah. So, I've been posted on LinkedIn for about five, six years now, and I have been working in sales development, marketing, and business development for almost 15 years now. Jesus, I started when I was 15 years old, you know, making content online for gaming companies, for the same purposes that I make content now for Paravasa, for example. And our Ravology and I have moved from your gaming to, you know, having day jobs in nightlife and hospitality while still doing contract work for gaming companies at night. And then I got to, you know, I worked in retail furniture sales while getting my insurance license. And so, like, I did a lot of random jobs, all up until about age 24, and I was less focused on industry, and at that age, more focused on paycheck and what was I good at, right in terms of the job itself, it wasn't till I got to Chicago, where the conversation started to shift. Because there's typically a point in your career where it's like, okay, I know what I'm good at. That's not the issue anymore. Now I need to figure out where I'm good at it. So when I got to Chicago, my first job was at a contract job at some logistics, third-party logistics broker that should not be named, because it was like one of the worst places I've ever been in my entire life. And but then my I, while working there, I was looking for a job that I really wanted, and I got a job at a company called em broker. Still think very fondly of them today. They're an insurance technology startup, and while working there, I started my ICP, my assigned demographic to do business development towards was venture capital-backed SaaS companies. And regardless of what lane of SAS, and even then, some of it was in SaaS, sometimes was biotech. I even worked some cannabis companies that were VC-backed, and because I worked in insurance, I also understood business, because it was commercial insurance, so I understood, like, you know, why a business cares about these things, how to protect the revenue, how to protect their liabilities. Do you know insurance? You know, you know insurance, all these things that most people have no idea what the hell I'm saying right now, because this is a marketing show. I understood the importance of this, in marketing, on sales and these things, because that was a part of the job. And I realized, Oh, I like the innovation and the entrepreneurial spirit that these people have at these companies, because I was speaking to the founders, even if they were CFOs, they were also like the founder, typically. So I quickly realized that I wanted to work with people like that, and I didn't leave and broker, on my own accord, that was a covid related layoff, but I kept that in the back of my mind when I was applying for new jobs, was I want to work at a VC backed, you know, SaaS startup going forward, because that's where that spirit is. Now, fast forward a few years to a couple of years ago, when I started having a major mental health crisis, and I was just very unhappy, I realized that I was working in sales tech and martech, and, you know, within the SAS world, and it's a very incestuous pool, for lack of a better description, anybody who works on space knows that. Yeah, and the culture, this is not a dig at it, but for me, felt very much like my high school experiences. And there was a lot, yeah, there's a lot of people that were just really good at marketing and marketing, which is a great valid skill, but I'm not out here trying to, you know, do a richer measuring contest for those that get the joke on LinkedIn of who's got the better marketing I want to do, actually good marketing. So my content, I was like, Well, what I've been making content about marketing and sales for other marketing and sales people for five years, and it's so obnoxious because everybody their brother, has an opinion, and 90% of these opinions are unqualified, because 90% of these people got the job because they're a straight white man who knew somebody, or they got a rich mommy and daddy who sent them to Stanford or Princeton, and they have unethical business practices. They're not as self-made as they think they are. They don't know what they're talking about. The list goes on, and I got sick and tired of how angry it would make me, and through the mental health crisis, I spent a lot of time working on emotional regulation skills. And one of the things they teach you, with you know, when you're when you when you're late stage, diagnosed of autism, ADHD, and borderline personality disorder all in one year, is that sometimes it's not about emotional regulation, sometimes it's about, why do you keep going into rooms that make you so miserable? So now? Yeah, so, so. And also, cliche, very 29-year-old, like life problem to have right where it's just like it's, I'm about to enter my 30s, and I'm kind of taking audit of the first 10 years of my adult life. You know, you talk about what's not working, what's not working right? So made in different changes my social life, everything. And Ben Mansfield found me through my content before the mental health crisis and hired me as a consultant for a startup of his. And he became a very good friend and mentor. And today, he's not just a client of mine, he's a business partner of mine. We're launching a new business together, and he's also a my executive coach. And one thing I learned through working with him is I want to do work similar to what he does for a living, but at the same time, I found that, oh, I really like launching businesses. I really like the early-stage go-to-market strategy. I love working with people that don't know how to do marketing. They but they understand the importance of it. They are consummate professionals and a star players of what they do. They just need someone to help them get what they do, seeing, bought hard, and heard, and I found through Ben, somebody that saw my ability to do that before I knew I had the ability to do that. And Ben had that happen to him when he was around my age. So I've been very thankful to have a lot of people like him in my life. Joe Caprio was kind of my the one that pushed me to really, you know, double down on LinkedIn, because he said, like, Evan, don't water yourself down and clean up the way you talk. Beat that audacious flamboyancy of you is actually what's going to do you some good in your career. All right, so I have a list of people that were very pivotal in my life professionally. So when Ben did that three years ago, and I was like, you know, kind of going through backtracking, like, what were the traits of the people that I liked working with the most, not just from employers, but also, like, clients and colleagues and stuff. And I was like, Well, who has all those traits? And it was all the people that fit that world that Ben was from. And so I was like, you know, like, Well, how do you get people like Ben and like, and then I talked to Ben, I talked to Melissa Moody. I did a lot of Googling, YouTube, and talking to marketers that had like, 1020 years of experience on me. And it was like, Yeah, Evan, you're not you have to shift how you'd market yourself. You have to come up with the product. The product now is, I want to help people who can't do this themselves. So I have to stop making content for marketers and sales people like I, early, younger me, needed to get a marketing job because I was being hired by VPs of marketing and CMOs and VPs of sales. Now I'm being hired by the CEO to be the CMO. You don't do that by talking about marketing best practices. You talk about doing that by talking about, like, this is why marketing is important. This is what you need as a business. You come at it from a different perspective. So once I started shifting my content, it took me about two to three years to really figure out how I want to approach that. From a marketing from a from, just a positioning perspective, but like refining how to get the thoughts that I knew I had up here, out there that, yeah, such a hard thing as, you know, as a marketer, yeah, especially when it's personal thoughts, right? And then after I got that figured out, and business started to come in, I invested in. Hiring a BDR for me that helped me focus, take some of my time off of my plate, and let me just focus on what I do best. So I can do less on the prospecting and more on the marketing. So I focus on all of my inbound a but he focuses on all of my outbound. And then now I'm focused more on, how do I inject more of my comedy back into it? Because I sucked that out of it for a while intentionally. I stopped being funny for a while because I wanted to focus on what's going to move the needle the most, which is being good at this. So now I'm in a new stage in my career where I want to focus on I've got, like, the new business that Ben and I are going to be working on together is kind of like my last test for me, by me, for me to get the skills that I need to be able to start moving towards more overall go to market strategy and business consulting and business launching. That's the realm that I see myself in the second half of my 30s. It's not from a confidence issue. I know I have the I know I can do it, but I also know that I'm not in a hurry to get there. I'm 31 years old. I've got plenty of time. You do get the skills and the experience to be good enough to do that? So I'm very privileged. I get to work now alongside people in that capacity, but those people they have the years and experience I just don't have yet, so I get to do it in a safe space.

Kerry Guard 26:26

You've definitely built up your cabinet of people who not only are looking out for you and taking care of you, but are helping you level up to the next level. You've really done a good job of finding those folks and aligning to them and wanting to follow in their footsteps and being very coachable to do it. So I think that's a huge testament to you and to all of us as we think about, like, where we want to go and who do we want to surround ourselves with and key. And I think you're you can correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like too these aren't. These are people who are building you up, but they're not doing it in a way. I'm reading it as not. You know, generally, when people get good at business, they start to surround themselves with a lot of yes men, which is yeah, no other conversation, which I know it doesn't sound like you've done, and I just want to make that really critical to how you find those folks and build that sort of cabinet of people who build you up and help you get to that next stage In a way that isn't just co signing your bullshit.

Evan Patterson 27:23

Yeah, I honestly, therapy really was how I got better at picking better people to surround myself with, in and out of work, and this is, this is advice I was told not to do when I was younger, but I've learned it's been nothing. But good is I? I work with people that I could see myself being friends with and now granted you and I both know that if you take that logic and you apply it to certain people, that means people that look like you, sound like you and talk like you, but for some of us who aren't Republicans, that means that doesn't mean that I value that diversity in my life, not just from the cliche definitions of diversity, but just the different, you know, lived experiences of, you know, growing up poor versus rich middle class. You know, I only have one client in America. I have over 20 clients, right? All of my clients are outside of the United States. Half of them are in countries where English is the second language, not the first language. I have clients that are currently dealing with like war in the same like country that they're in, like actual war. And so I have made it very clear like I only want to work with people that I enjoy working with. I never want to I never want to not enjoy myself at work. And that doesn't mean I won't hear things that I don't want to hear but need to hear, but I surround myself with people that I would invite to stay in my guest room at my home. You know, that's kind of the litmus test. So, yeah, that's been very helpful to work with people that even if we weren't clients or coworkers or colleagues or business partners, at a minimum, we would be friends.

Kerry Guard 29:16

Yeah, I just love how you built that up too, because so many times we join like different organizations, that there's EO and yc and Vistage and a whole bunch of these places, but I do find that then you don't get to pick your people. And I just really love how you've hand-picked these folks. And I think we can all really take a page out of that book, something you mentioned, 20 clients. That's no joke, and especially for what you sort of mentioned before, I'm sure you're not charging them all. You know, no.

Evan Patterson 29:54

I only have two clients over 15k, I think people, either most of my clients, will pay me closer to 5k, and even then, that's the. For business expenses and taxes. So don't get too impressed, y'all.

Kerry Guard 30:04

That's a lot of context switching that is really tough to do. So how are you one? I want to know how you're managing it, and then I have a follow-up question around some of the trends you're seeing. Yeah.

Evan Patterson 30:14

So from managing it, I have, you know, very thankfully. So I'm thankfully, actually at a point now where I see my therapist on an as-needed basis, and I now spend that time and money on an ADHD, executive functioning coach. So not Ben's an executive leadership coach. That's executive, I mean, like, executive presence. This is the executive functioning, you know, getting things done, coach. And so, um, the things that I've learned to help me my personal life. As anybody who has ADHD knows, just like habits don't happen, people have ADHD. Like, everything takes effort. Everything is climbing Mount Everest. There's an analogy where it's like, you go in your kitchen and turn on the your burner on your stove and put your hand on it, your reactions. Why the hell what? No, I don't, I'm not gonna do that like, but you can, like, you can logically see, like, how you could move your hand and put it on the flames. Yeah, like, that level of like, hesitancy to touch that fire is how it feels for an ADHD person to brush their teeth, take a shower, put on clothes. Like, so, no, it's not lazy, and it's not lazy, and it's not procrastination like that is literally how doing anything feels. So the what I've learned, I've had to learn tricks on how to do that, which is really helpful for learning how to context switch, because once you learn how to work with your brain and speak its language for yourself, by yourself, you realize that ADHD can it's not a superpower. It's very debilitating, but it can be used as a superpower if you learn how to master it. So for me, it's that has been able to help me have that capacity is come up with systems for my own internal business operations that set me up for success. I still don't work 40 hours a week, and I have 20 over 20 clients. So because I have come up with ways to get me into flow state where I'm extremely productive, consistently on call when I need to, I have come up with ways to give myself the time off to I need to recharge and get more creative. The list goes on. I have changed what I eat, what I drink, when I sleep, everything, so I could do my business better. The heck, even where I do karaoke has changed for my business. Literally, it has affected my business by changing which karaoke bar I go to, because the types of people that go to this karaoke bar are like lawyers, doctors, nurses, business people, professional singers and dancers and drag queens and artists, because it's on Tuesdays when they're not at their gigs, people that are on all the Broadway shows that come to Chicago come to this bar. But so I'm surrounded by very self-made, ambitious, driven people, so I leave every Tuesday feeling so it's like the biggest crack cocaine hit possible of energy, right? Little tiny things like that helped me do all that context switching, because now I'm looking forward to I've got to go home and work on this white paper now that I just geeked out about what these people at this bar that that do not owe me any of that, but like, that's what we all we all love our jobs, so we get to nerd out about these things together while we're singing show tunes. You know, hack your life. I have really focused a lot on that. Yeah, that. The other trick is the software coming from the SAS world. I get to take a lot of all the knowledge that I've learned about SaaS. So I've been experimenting with new software to help me, if that's the ADHD, I use streaks, if anybody's ever heard of it, it's not a very popular app, but they should be for habit building. It's free to use. I fucking love it. It uses gamification to help you, like, build habits, and it works on your computer and your phone, everything. Then, for my task management software, everybody loves Monday, Asana, Trello, and all stuff. I might listen. I do not have a problem with those things, but I don't care if the company has their own thing. I always live in a first and foremost to-do list, because it is the most ADHD friendly version. I have spent time with my ADHD coach learning the Get It Done methodology of get all the tasks out of your head on the paper or into the inbox of Todoist, and then you go through, like, if it get done less than five minutes, just do it right now. If it can be delegated, delegated. If it no longer needs to happen, delete it. And if it can be done later, just put it for later, not when, just, just for later, and so, and I just, and I just have one project. Like, that's it. Like, I don't have all the like, it's the most simple to-do list. I have automated everything I possibly can in it. I use Spark mail so I can highlight line items within an email and it. Will automatically make that thing and move it to the inbox of Todoist. And then I use fireflies. Used to use Fathom, but Fireflies connects with a to-do list, and every time I have a meeting, it takes all of the asks and tasks and puts them in that inbox. And then twice a day, to do list which syncs with my Google calendar, which I live, breathe, eat, sleep, die on hell when I'm hanging out my partners, those dates are on my calendar like i It tells me when to go into to do list and puts aside the time for me to go into to do is to do that thing I just told you about, where you go through, what gets done in five what gets delegate right, so on and so forth and so none of things get automatically sorted when I automatically poured it over there, but it's at least getting put into the place where I need to sort it. Then what streaks does is I get to mark that I did it, and I get that little dopamine.

Kerry Guard 35:54

To jump out or anything. No, there's confetti. There's confetti. Well, there are limits or something.

Evan Patterson 36:01

I also for in my money life, I actually, like, set aside, like, an amount of money to buy my something that I don't need at the end of each week, month and quarter, kind of like a bonus to myself, I can buy this frivolous thing that I objectively don't need. Yeah, so it's not, it's so it's not a vacation. It's not like, it's not, it's like, this just really stupid, silly, like, video game that I don't need, or this, you know, I like, recently I've been really wanting to redo my bedroom, so I just splurged and bought a bunch of new furniture into core of my bedroom. That was my treat to myself for spending like three months in a row, consistently building these habits that I promised I would give myself if I did that. But also in the meantime, like treating myself to buying that, like, you know, some people when they get delivery for, you know, for on Uber Eats or stuff, some people feel awkward ordering themselves a meal from a five-star restaurant. I will let myself do that if I've earned it. I love that. I'll get fucking Gibson's delivered. But, you know, nothing beats Yeah, I'll get Gibson steakhouse delivered while I'm stoned, in my underwear, in my living room watching RuPaul drag race. Because I earned

Kerry Guard 37:19

it. Yes. I mean, this is the beauty of you doing you and owning your own business and being able to find ways to, like, hack your brain for productivity like that. If that's I know so many folks with ADHD, and they need that thing to look forward to to keep them motivated going.

Evan Patterson 37:39

And you also need instant gratification. And I think people think instant gratification means impatience. It No, it's not. People of ADHD do not do well when the gratification is delayed. We need little like moments of celebrating progress along the way. They often say, like, break up the tasks and the sub-tasks. They don't get overwhelmed. For some of us, that's helpful for the other half of us, it's also, it's not the subtasks make it less overwhelming. It also, it gives us opportunities to see visually how far we've come from where we started. That's why the Pomodoro Technique is so popular. It's why they tell people to use clocks like this with ADHD, so you can visually see time passing, see that you've done something, right? Yeah, you also have an end time too; little, tiny things like that have made it so I can handle that many clients. And also picking, like my fractional clients, I only have like four or five fractional clients at a time. The majority of the clients are the ghost friend stuff. You work in marketing, so you know that's a bit run of the mill. Like, it's very easy for me to, like, spend two hours and knock out all of their content for a month in two hours, right? It's not that hard, because at the end of the day, the only thing I'm doing differently is the messaging.

Kerry Guard 38:59

Yeah, yeah, especially if you get into a flow state. Let's talk about that for a second. If you're working across all these clients, and you're doing all this writing for them, and you've been on social forever, what's sort of the trends now? I mean, I think we're all trying, like, banging our heads against the LinkedIn wall, trying to figure out, like, what on earth is happening? But what are you seeing in terms of things that are working and not working in the land of content, both from a writing perspective, but also from a, you know, from a launching and publication standpoint of?

Evan Patterson 39:32

Yeah, from a writing perspective, people want personality. People want people, buy from people they like people, buy from people they enjoy working with, and look forward to working with. It's not it's not enough to be good at what you do anymore. You have to be someone that people look forward to working with. So, as so one of my, I've turned down clients because you're just not entertaining. You're not interesting, and I can't make you that way. I'm sorry. Go get a personality. Come back. Later, not personal? Yeah, it's, it's I, that's one of the things that it's harsh, but it's true. In order to succeed on social media, you can't just be smart.

Kerry Guard 40:12

What does it mean? This is gonna sound really weird and dry, I guess, but like, what does it mean to have a person, personality or not

Evan Patterson 40:20

unique, charismatic, witty, emotionally, provocative, sympathetic, empathetic, outgoing, boisterous. There's a lot of quirky, profound, divisive, hell. Look at Trump. I mean, he's an idiot, but he's good at grabbing people's attention. Yeah, let's be honest, right? So I hate the man, but he is a master class in marketing, you know, not at least in the short term, not in long term, terrible class in PR. So the point I'm getting at is you have to be good at giving people a reason to hear you out. And a really good way to do that is to be somebody that people want to know and people want to be in the same room with, and that is in being smart sign up. I can find a ton of people that are good at what you do. Why, you though, you know, oh, because you'll like working with me. Okay, that's that's a differentiating factor, that's a brand differentiator. And so I focus on that. I don't write for the algorithm at all anymore. I mean, like, there's still some things that are best practices. You and I both know, hooks, you know, right? With mobile in mind, right? But not the audience. I'm writing about the audience. I also don't focus on impressions and views, because my clients are working in such a niche spaces where, like, 1000 views might be 100,000 views in a different space, right? Because out of the number of people on LinkedIn, you know, this slither of them even work in that space. And then as even smaller southern them check LinkedIn once a month, and then an even smaller slither of that slither will hit like or comment, you know, right? So it's like managing expectations of like good for you might be 250 views, because I can get you 100,000 views, but only 250 of those views will matter. So why am I going to put all this effort into getting you 200,000 views, if 250 of the right views is still better no matter what? Yeah, but it's it. I would rather focus on the quality of the conversations that start in your inbox, the number, and the types of people that book meetings from you. So every time I do reporting for my customers, I don't show them the analytics of their content. I don't talk about their engagement rate, their follower count, or their view rate. I talk about the percentage of your viewers are your ICP. This percentage of your viewers are adjacent to your ICP. This is your pipeline before this content. This is your pipeline after this content. These are the people that have said that they found you through their your content. These are the people who haven't said it, but they DM you on LinkedIn, so I can only assume that that is why. So I do not even bring up followers, likes, impressions, or anything at all. When I'm talking to my customers, I talk about how does this impacts your bottom line?

Kerry Guard 43:18

Absolutely that, and I think that's so important, and something we definitely, all I can say for myself definitely get stuck on of like, you know, is 250 impressions, even any good, you know, that seems to be where I my contents hanging out and be amazing, yeah, and, and, to your point, you know it. So I guess my question is like, okay, the impression, volume and the engagement isn't as important the DMS, obviously, and the revenue is this the only thing that most of these folks, because you said you're more in the early stage, is this really the only big push that they're doing right now where you can measure impact on pipeline, because there isn't really much else happening, or how do you know for sure that It was what you were doing from an attribution standpoint, to know that that that is pipeline.

Evan Patterson 44:05

It's not the only thing for most of them. For some of them, it's the only thing, because we just haven't gotten far long enough yet for me to experience, and it's usually, let's start there, right? It's the lowest-hanging fruit for a lot of my clients. But regardless of whether it's that or the other. Every good marketer knows you should spend time talking to the customers. You should spend time talking to the leads, even if they're in the process of becoming one, or if they don't become one. And you know, the other reason why I like B to B, and this might be a bit devious of me, is my clients. Clients sometimes become my clients. So I know who all my clients, clients are, because I'm trying to sell to them as much as I am trying to do the job that I'm being paid to do at the same time. So, a good marketer, a great way to pitch hire me is to do the job in front of them. Right? Right? So I go to them, and I'm like, Hey, this is the head of whatever. You know, I do this for that person you just spoke to. I know you didn't buy from them or whatever. And I'm, like, speaking from business, I don't even work for them. I'm actually a business owner myself, from business owner to the business owner. I'd love to know, you know, how this happened, what happened? You know, no, not trying to change your mind or anything, the reply rate, and that's like 90% because business owners love to help out other business owners.

Kerry Guard 45:28

You do, founder? Founders? Definitely.

Evan Patterson 45:30

Yeah, there's, there's a even if they, you know, most of my clients, when they don't work together with somebody, the close loss reasons aren't like the closed loss reasons in SaaS, it's budget issues, like, they literally can't afford them, or it really is bad timing. Like, it like, and I know you and I both know, like, the cliche sales thing is like, well, we can make this great timing. No, sometimes it is bad timing. Yep, sorry, I don't have the I can afford you, but you need me to be involved for 10 hours a week at the beginning, and that's fine. I understand I don't have 10 hours right now. Yep, that's, that's a reason. That's a valid reason that you shouldn't fight because it's out of your control, right? Yep, so, but they'll come to you when, when and if they can, that's, that's the that's the job is to make sure that they remember that you when they can, right? Yeah, I go one step further and say, How can I help you? I know it's not my job to help you, but I would like to offer it as a fellow business owner. That's the catch. I go to them and I figure out what the reason was, and I offer support, how I can, on behalf of my client, but also on behalf of me.

Kerry Guard 46:38

And that's just the circle of influence that then happens, because you're paying it forward to them in a way that's both for both sides, your client as well as you. And like, what a wonderful sort of world. I don't say you fell into. You made very intentional aspects to get here, but you're continuing to build on that in a really lovely way. And I think the founder-to-founder piece, as you start to build out your own business, is so powerful. And I feel that. I feel that too. And I think the fractional world sort of taking off in this moment because of how awful the job market is. And so if you're out there looking for a job there, think, I think Evan did a wonderful job today, really breaking down some opportunities as it could pertain to you, going out on your own and building up your own little Empire over here. My last question to you, Evan, because Jesus Christ, I could talk to you all day.

Kerry Guard 47:36

We might just have to. I do. I do want to know, from a trending perspective, and from all the content you've been producing, yeah, like, what's working? Yeah, what's what people obviously want, personality, you've mentioned that. But what kind of content is actually working? Is it more product? You know, we're talking about services, more service-focused, problem, solution? Is it like, what are, what are the trends you're seeing?

Evan Patterson 48:00

Case studies, storytelling, examples of things that are working, not working. And a lot of people are like, Well, what do I do if I'm not even there yet? Because, you know, talk about, you know, if somebody came to you with a certain problem, hypotheticals, basically hypothetical stories, hypothetical case studies, you're not lying at making it up, but you're telling. Like, if someone came to me with this question, this is what I would say, you know, and make it a question. That is a question that people actually do come to you, or people in that space come to you with or come to people like you with those and speak plainly, say it the way that you would say to someone's face, you know, be extremely casual. That kind of content is, that is what's working the most for my clients, is the most stripped back, bare bones, least editing, least fluff, most like the way that they would. I even say, like, tell me how you would explain this to your 10-year-old at the dinner table. Yes, because that's how I'm going to say to LinkedIn. Because, let's be honest, people are on LinkedIn at one o'clock in the morning, doomscrolling. And they go like, I need, I need this jargon, this setup. I know they know the jargon. You know your audience isn't dumb. They know that. They know what you mean. They can read in between the lines, but they're just, they're not firing on all cylinders when they're scrolling.

Kerry Guard 49:15

None of us are, but we know that we need to comment, so we'll try and find something to say. Yeah.

Evan Patterson 49:19

So I'm like, so like, just like, it's you're not dumb and down. You're simplifying it, you're making it easier to consume.

Kerry Guard 49:25

So that's how I do it. I absolutely love that. And I think this is critical for two reasons. One is, it sounds like people are actually engaging with it, and it's matter, and it matters.

Evan Patterson 49:35

The funny thing is, my clients have terrible engagement rates, but they have extremely high, above-average in, like inbound DMS.

Kerry Guard 49:41

That’s what I mean. So from a working perspective, yeah, from a working engagement, right?

Evan Patterson 49:44

Yeah, from a from a business perspective, yes, marketing perspective, it looks like shit on a dashboard.

Kerry Guard 49:53

Know that, I have to say, This is making me feel so much better about my LinkedIn anyway, and this. From an SEO and AEO standpoint, this is where it's all headed. I just had my I meet. I have a little meetup group, which you're going to get an invite to. Evan. It's going to be awesome. Can't wait we meet. They're all fractionals. We meet one at the end of every month. And one of the gals, Heidi, went to a webinar where they talked about the importance of Q and A and FAQs on the bottom every single landing page, literally, opinion, though, on it, and and from a social perspective, that's where that this is where the LLMSs are scraping right, and they want that conversational Q and A red. It's another place.

Evan Patterson 50:36

So is a good agency. Excuse me, for anybody who needs to outsource it. By the way, I haven't used them yet, but I've heard great things if you need to use somebody non-spawn, but, you know, it's because it's a lot of work. Aeos,

Kerry Guard 50:52

AEOs, yeah, we do AEO, yeah, we do.

Evan Patterson 50:56

Some companies, one day, you know, because that's a heavy lift.

Kerry Guard 51:01

But this is one thing. If you needed to start and do something, this is one thing you can do and do really easily and really well, from a founder perspective, of just finding those questions, and I actually brandy, I'll find her last name and comment for her. She's awesome. She just posted yesterday about how she tells her founders to go through their inboxes and find the top 10 questions they get all the time.

Evan Patterson 51:25

Yeah, my clients inboxes a lot for content. Awesome. Yeah. So it's the they send me their voice, they send me their call recordings, and then I take, like, all the transcripts, and then I go to chat GBT and like find me the commonalities.

Kerry Guard 51:38

I love, yes? So I'm thinking for myself. I'm like, This is so dumb. A duh, like everybody's saying it. I should have been doing this for a while now. So now even.

Evan Patterson 51:46

My opinion, though, is my clients. I often tell them, like, SEO and AEO are, like, the foot traffic of the internet, right? Like, the way, like a restaurant might pick where they are in a city, right, right? Like, do you have the kind of business that depends on foot traffic if it was in a city and they go, No, not really. So why do you care about SEO and AEO if you're a destination business, right? Like, if you're the kind of business that people log into Google Maps to find out where it is and drive to it. It's not the kind of business that people stumble upon and go that looks interesting. Why do you care?

Kerry Guard 52:36

Well, I mean, I have a, I have an estate planning client who's in, you know, services.

Evan Patterson 52:40

I don't have. That's the difference. My clients aren't doing estate planning.

Kerry Guard 52:46

Idea for that, right? They have, they have longer term impact, for sure, but I would say we all need cert the way that search is changing and website traffic is changing is it's all going to be showing up in the llms. People are not going to you until they absolutely need the thing they need, and so your website traffic is going to drop, but the conversion rates are going to go up.

Evan Patterson 53:09

So I just focus on the people that are already being pulled on those tools, like McKinseys, the Gartners, whatever. And then I go and find their marketers and say, Here's a report that my little you know client agency did that you can use to make your report. So you have to reference us in your report that gets pulled up by them. So I'll have to do that. You can do it for me. That's a little back door right there. Yeah, my clients are B to B, my clients that my clients, clients are governments. My clients are cities, my clients, clients are billionaires. Okay? They're not googling for things.

Kerry Guard 53:47

That's really valid. No, I think that's all about.

Evan Patterson 53:50

Yeah, if I had an estate planner client, oh, SEO, all the way, honey,

Kerry Guard 53:55

That's a really but that's the, but that's the importance of really understanding your audience, right? Priority, yeah. And that's actually really unusual, like, for where you're sitting, right? Like, I have another client who does this very specific niche thing, nobody's Googling them.

Evan Patterson 54:13

Yeah, yeah. No one's googling even that type of thing. You know what? They're no, they're not.

Kerry Guard 54:19

They don't even know rail designation. Were you talking about?

Evan Patterson 54:22

Nobody's sustainable impact and housing community consulting, yeah, who's googling sustainable impact? Housing Community Consultant?

Kerry Guard 54:33

Once they start hearing the name of the brand, then they might,

Evan Patterson 54:38

Then they Google the name brand, but they're the only one called that

Kerry Guard 54:42

They'll go down the rabbit hole to understand and get

Evan Patterson 54:45

That's what I'm getting at when I talk about AEO and SEO, is a lot of people get so excited about this new trend, and I'm like, ask yourself, does this trend apply to you still? Yeah? Like, yeah, before you get too excited.

Kerry Guard 55:00

But my point is, regardless of whether they need it right now, what you're doing is naturally lending itself to it.

Evan Patterson 55:05

Yeah, yeah. I'm always considering it in like in the back of my mind, and I keep my client, you know.

Kerry Guard 55:10

You're just naturally doing it, whether you're quite

Evan Patterson 55:12

Ignorant, because I don't want to get them too excited.

Kerry Guard 55:15

No, I mean, they they might not need it, and that's all well they might not need it right now, and that's all well and good till you build up. You know, if they ever get to a point where they're building forget to a point where they're.

Evan Patterson 55:23

Building up a category like a Deloitte or Charles Schwab, yeah, sure, but not sure, I'm not going to be

Kerry Guard 55:27

They're right or for what you're doing right now, and how you're, how you're you're naturally playing into for the long game. It's going to benefit them in the long run. So it's, yeah, totally.

Evan Patterson 55:39

We could do six. We could do six of these episodes. It's a problem.

Kerry Guard 55:44

We could. And if you want more of this, you should just comment below, and we will make that happen. About what you want to hear about next? Yeah, because we could talk, by the way. Okay, so I think our next talk will be, you know what? You're writing a lot of content, but I would want to know what other kind of content you're is it all writing or video?

Evan Patterson 56:08

for my clients, or for me, for your clients? It's almost exclusively all writing, but expanding that soon, thanks to a certain agency that you and I have met, and I also am working on more video content for myself that will be coming out later this year as well. I want to focus more on short-form video, because a lot of the posts that I write, I actually like to annotate first. And I think that if people know me and they meet me, like you know, you can hear my voice when you read my post. Yeah, if you've never heard my voice, you can't do that. So I'm looking for more ways to just vary how the same exact message is delivered.

Kerry Guard 56:50

Yeah, video is definitely especially for personal branding. Is Yeah, has happening. So yeah. Anyway.

Evan Patterson 57:01

I'm not selling water bottles, so I don't measure success based on the views. I'm measuring success based on the dollars.

Kerry Guard 57:07

That's right, that's what we're here for, because at the end of the day, that's what we all need to be doing. So you got to be able to.

Evan Patterson 57:12

Also it makes you happier when you don't care how many likes you get.

Kerry Guard 57:15

I gotta tell you, be freeing. Be freaking freeing. I keep thinking I need to like crack the algorithm of LinkedIn, but I think there's just so many, like, or somebody said to me yesterday, oh my god, I love your content. I'm like, really, because you've never liked or commented, right? People just lurk. They read and they engage, they hang out, they don't engage. And that's just like.

Evan Patterson 57:39

I have so many friends that I have seen scroll on their phone, and then they laugh. They like something, and then they swipe. I'm like, No, go back to that fucking post, like you liked it. So hit like, and people like, I never do that. I never think to do that. I'm like.

Kerry Guard 57:57

Kelly's way.

Evan Patterson 57:59

What so? And then they complain about what's on their algorithm, because they don't train the algorithm. So instead of fighting that right, what I focus more now on is I make content with that in mind. Yeah, I make content knowing that you're not going to hit like, but you're going to remember it.

Kerry Guard 58:21

Where you're gonna remember it? I love it. I love it. Oh my gosh, Evan, what? Where can people find you?

Evan Patterson 58:27

Not at my house, and on LinkedIn, you can find me. Evan Patterson, on LinkedIn, I'm not really anywhere else, because nobody pays me enough to be anywhere else. I have a newsletter that is sign-upable via my website, but I'm also going to be moving it to LinkedIn as well soon. So follow me internal notifications and all of that, and hire me

Kerry Guard 58:51

All of the above, all of the above. Evan, I'm so grateful. Last question for you, what is currently outside of all this amazing work you're doing, what's currently bringing you joy?

Evan Patterson 59:03

I have gotten back into improv comedy stuff here locally in Chicago, more for hobby, just because, like, I have no i I don't want to do comedy full time as a job or career. What I want to do is build a career where they live harmoniously as one job, not as two jobs simultaneously. I'm creating a job for myself. You know, nobody's, there's not, there's not yet been a celebrity CEO who, when they do their TED talk or their speech at Dreamforce, is also the funniest, like Jimmy Carr level style monologue, right? I Why can't I have both, you know, at the exact same time, not in the exact same life? So that's kind of what I'm working on, is honing in my skills on both sides of that fence, and figuring out new and creative ways where I can make that same raunchy Dick gay joke that I make at the club while talking about PLG.

Kerry Guard 1:00:07

Worlds are colliding. Authenticity is here to stay. Folks, take it or leave it.

Evan Patterson 1:00:12

And if a convicted felon and pedophile can become president, I can make a gay joke on LinkedIn.

Kerry Guard 1:00:19

At the very least.

Evan Patterson 1:00:25

I'm sorry for mind-jacking your podcast in my political commentary. But no, I mean, this is what we're talking about.

Kerry Guard 1:00:34

I mean, this is a case in point around authentic content, around being yourself, standing up for what you think. And you know, giving people being divisive is, is a great is, yeah, it's definitely.

Evan Patterson 1:00:50

Something to mean say. Tell me, because I can't. I love it when it's my turn.

Kerry Guard 1:00:56

Oh, the trolls on LinkedIn, stay away. Oh,

Evan Patterson 1:00:58

I love it, it mean to me. So I can say something meaner back, because mine will be at least funny.

Kerry Guard 1:01:06

Oh, Evan, thank you so much. If you like this episode, please like, subscribe, and share this.

Evan Patterson 1:01:11

Don't like it, fix who you are as a person.

Kerry Guard 1:01:16

Yeah, I don't think that.

Evan Patterson 1:01:18

I believe that you might not believe that, but I believe that but I believe that.

Kerry Guard 1:01:21

I believe everybody should be in therapy. It's wonderful. It changes lives.

Evan Patterson 1:01:24

Yeah, that's what, that's what, yeah, fix who you are. That could mean therapy. That could mean deport yourself to Mars. Yeah.

Kerry Guard 1:01:37

Yeah, we are gonna end this episode. It's gonna be great. This episode is brought to you by MKG Marketing, the marketing operating system that helps you get your marketing back on track to growth. And we are here for it. We work with people like Evan. So if you would like to learn more about how to plug Evan into the operating system and get your marketing up and running, let's make it happen. Thank you all so much. See you. We are out next week, but we'll be back the week after for another episode. See you.