Making Affiliate Marketing Work for Cybersecurity Products

Intro

Hello, I'm Kerry guard and Welcome to Tea Time with tech marketing leaders.

I just got off the phone with Thomas Beavers, who joins me on this episode to talk about affiliate marketing. Let me be clear, we say this a lot. We say it often and we actually break down the differences. But I want to be crystal clear before you decide to turn off this episode and walk away from hearing it. We're not talking about MLM, right. We're not talking about building a ladder. And having all the people at the top make all the money and the people actually doing the selling, making near nothing.

We're talking about affiliate marketing, which is straight up having empowering people to go out and talk and sell your product, getting a straight up permission for that. And that's all affiliate marketing is currently that's how YouTube's been built.

And Thomas walks me through what that means. This was such a surprising episode, it really I did not see it going the way that it did. I thought this was going to be a very matter of fact, saying, Here's what affiliate marketing is, here's what you do with it. Sign up for Commission Junction and get started.

And it totally wasn't.

The way that Thomas is thinking about affiliate marketing isn't just about giving people tools that go sell your product. It's about empowering a new generation in a way that again, I just, I just didn't see this coming. I did not see our conversation going this way. And his ability to think about affiliate marketing in this kind of brain space with this kind of creativity is inspiring, just inspiring.

Little bit about Thomas Beavers. Thomas is currently the senior editor and grants director with profitability and statistics Inc. Thomas is a social entrepreneur, professional mediator, skilled web designer and Master's student with degrees in international development, international studies, minors in finance and economics and a focus on East Asia. And then his journey of like how he went from that to what he's doing today is fascinating, just waiting to hear a story. So, um, lastly about Thomas. He's also made his experience in global politics, intercultural communications, international law, global conflict management and partnering in multicultural, multidisciplinary teams to become a specially trained mediator for civil and family disputes worldwide, which we did not touch on. And so fun fact that Thomas he is currently the senior marketing manager at Oh, I'm gonna totally butcher this sounds this court. Yes, sauces court. It's a blockchain tool. We also talked about the different food, blockchain and bitcoin and how they're not the same. So little, little history and a little lesson there on some of the challenges that Thomas is facing in marketing and how to differentiate those two things and try and move as far away from Bitcoin as possible. And really just talk about the power of blockchain. And that's really what cell insists does, in terms of cybersecurity, and using Blockchain to help people keep all their details and data secure, secure, what a fascinating competition I can ever tell you. I've just, I just can't stop talking about it. So I'm gonna stop talking, and let you get on with it. Here's my conversation with Thomas.

Transcript

Kerry: Hello, Thomas, thank you for joining me on Tea Time with tech marketing leaders.

Hi, Kerry, nice to meet you. Thank you for having me.

Kerry: I'm so excited to have you. And and for this conversation, which is when I haven't had and I'm very excited to get into but before we get there, forget there. Thomas, tell us about yourself. What's your story? What do you do? And how did you get there?

Well, actually, it's kind of funny, I, I didn't go to school for any of this. I actually went for English and then social entrepreneurship and international business. So falling into the marketing was kind of a long process. I actually came to this company in the first place as a programmer. Not a very good programmer, but I was a programmer at one point. And after having done a lot of the technical stuff, they needed somebody to do technical writing. And luckily, I had a lot of experience with that in my academia. So Oh, I went through and basically wrote up all the tech documents for the company. And then they said, Well, hey, you're a pretty good writer, we really need you to start doing marketing. And so that's kind of how I ended up here.

Kerry: I got to know Thomas, because I can't help myself. I'm a curious person. I gotta know, how did you go from English and social entrepreneurship to programming, there seems to be a little bit of a disconnect in your story there.

There was there was. So I was actually going about and learning programming on aside because I couldn't really find a job getting out of college as an English major. So while I was doing that I was doing my masters and social entrepreneurship, and waiting tables and learning programming on the side. So somewhere in the course of that, I met with some people who just happened to be talking about blockchain, which is one of the things I was studying at the time. And from there, we got to talking and I'm not very good at blockchain, but I'm pretty good at explaining how it works.

Kerry: It's an art to explain. It really is so technical and complicated and simplify it for folks is an art.

Well, especially in the world of blockchain, because the first thing most people think of when they hear blockchain is crypto, Bitcoin. And it's a very, very different thing. Blockchain isn't crypto, it's the power that makes crypto possible. So it's not like you're running Windows on your computer. Windows isn't your computer. It's the system that makes your computer able to work.

Kerry: Right, right. Right. Yeah,

explaining that is a bit of a challenge right now, especially with Bitcoin dropping so far, and value and all of those things, it's, we're trying to distance ourselves a little bit from cryptocurrency, because that's not what we do.

Kerry: Know you use blockchain differently. You use it for cybersecurity, which is also fascinating. And we can talk about that all day, actually, you're gonna be on my business partners podcast, where you're totally going to unpack that, and I can't wait to hear that episode. So I'm gonna sit back. And we're gonna stay in our lane, we're gonna stay in our lane Thomas and talk about marketing. Before we get into that, and, and really on Earth, what you do in terms of affiliate marketing, which is not MLM people not talking about? I'm Dr. Phil, yet they're different. We're going to explain the differences in a second. Before we get there, though. Thomas, can you please tell us one challenge you're currently facing in relation to your work and what you got going on.

So in terms of challenges, that is one of the challenges we are facing is kind of differentiating, differentiating ourselves between blockchain and Bitcoin, that sort of thing. Also, we're trying to compete against not really a the same product, but an old school product that is very well entrenched. And so we're trying to bring this disruptive technology against people like Google Drive and some some very big players. So trying to get people away from those established names is a little more difficult.

Kerry: Especially I imagine if they've been with Google for so long, like we have, like, we've been with Google for eight years, so to on Earth us from that would be very daunting.

Especially you've got all your documents there for probably the last eight years. And you know, you get to the point where it's just too difficult to move. And so that's, that's definitely something we're fighting against. Because, yes, it's difficult to know, but it's worth it in the current, you know, cybersecurity climate.

Kerry: What, just because we, you know, I think a lot of marketers are facing this, in terms of this cutting edge technology and differentiating themselves and trying to get people to move from older systems, especially in cybersecurity, right, like we all use Google. But we also know that it's probably not the most secure. And so how are you making that case of? I know, it's a challenge for you right now. And maybe you haven't quite cracked the code, but how are you starting to approach that?

Well, so So part of that is the cloud. Most people store their stuff in the cloud. And yes, it does make it very, very convenient. You can get your documents to your old team very quickly. You can all work on it together. The issue with that is cybercriminals, go for your cloud first. That is the very first thing that they target and try to secure and encrypt for themselves. So not only that, everything you store on most of these cloud services is subject to being read and used for advertising purposes by those companies. And that's in the terms of service, if you actually read them. So that's another avenue that we're kind of taking we're we're targeting individuals that, that value their privacy.

Excuse me. So yeah, so you're you're targeting people who value their privacy. So I'd How are you sorry, totally go down a rabbit hole here. But maybe this will lead us to our conversation. And I imagine there those people aren't like raising their hand very high, and they're not screaming from the mountaintops. It's me every year trying to secure my privacy, you know, this, you know, they're also trying to be discreet. And that is, so certainly one of the issues.

Kerry: Yeah. So how are you thinking about approaching those folks are finding them or having them find you.

So actually, we're working on a whole new marketing strategy, where we use affiliate marketing, in tandem with podcasts, other sorts of outreach, where we're actually creating content for people to advertise our product in addition to themselves. So we're branching out and taking a couple of different avenues to try and bring in those specific people. And of course, those podcasts and those outreach are targeted towards specific demographics that would have more of an interest in our product.

Kerry: Okay, I gotta unpack that. But before we get there, before we get there, let's talk about what affiliate marketing is and how you found it and sort of fell into this

Thomas: I've been doing affiliate marketing since the old days, I started up a swords sales job, when I was 15. With my cousin, he was 13 at the time, and we I think we made $300 off of affiliate marketing back in those days, so that that was pretty big money to us kids. And I've been using it off and on ever since honestly, for the interesting thing is I started on the, the client side of this, I wasn't an actual supplier of the products. So I got kind of an interesting perspective, being that salesman and knowing what those salesmen are kind of looking for, to be able to sell our product. So affiliate marketing, essentially, is giving someone else a commission to sell your product for you. And that cuts back on light on marketing expenses, because you weren't putting down that initial salary for a salesman to go out and knock on doors. You're paying somebody with a market of their own that they've already developed that is usually in the industry that you're trying to advertise to. And then you pay them a straight commission on whatever they sell. So it opens up a huge amount of sales for you without any initial cost.

Kerry: How is this different from like a salesperson that only works off of commission? Or is or could that be part of it?

Thomas: That can absolutely be part of it. Individuals can sign up and do sign up on affiliate marketing programs all the time. A lot of the the YouTube streamers or these Tiktok people that you see are getting paid to promote products through affiliate marketing programs. So when you see your favorite YouTuber your advertising their new phone, they're actually making you know up to maybe 10% of that sale by directing you through their website.

Kerry: So individuals or people with large, you know, customer bases it can be helpful for interesting so that's how YouTubers make their money I've always wondered right right. Well the kids love this this YouTuber Mr. Beast or something and apparently he's like, some crazy millionaire billionaire and like he gives his money away all the time. And I'm like, how are you? They apparently he's got other side businesses, but a lot of it comes from YouTube. And now I'm starting to put like, oh, yeah, he promotes products all the time.

Thomas: And you can affiliate, right. And you can work your own sponsorship sponsorships or something along those lines, but most of them are just direct commissions right now.

Kerry: Just so we can clear the air here and be really thoughtful. Like I mentioned, this is not multi level marketing. Right? No different. It doesn't feel like it. When you're explaining it. It's definitely not multi level marketing. But I feel like those two sometimes get intertwined. And then it gets a bad rap.

Thomas: Right, right. Well, the affiliate system does get kind of a bad rap. Because back in the old days, it was kind of like the wild west of the internet, you didn't have the the controls and measures to prevent scammers from going on there. And for instance, selling you a way to kill cockroaches in your home every day, and then sending you a wooden block and telling you to smash the cockroach with it. And or why pay $20 for this, there was no real controls on that. Now, it's very much different, they have a very sophisticated way of measuring all of the affiliates all of the the advertisers out there to make sure they are doing what they're supposed to do and that they're advertising along the the actual suppliers guidelines. So in an MLM program, you've got a whole system where you're trying to get other people to sign up under you and getting people to sign up under them, and so on and so forth. This is really nothing like that are our sellers are trying to get anybody sign up under them or to sell for them. They're literally just trying to get people to sign up for our product just like any other salesman would. Or any other sales agency. So it's a very different system. And I do understand the confusion, but that's mainly based on things that are no longer true in the industry.

Kerry: Yeah, from what I understand of MLM and the real problem with it is that it's this trickle down Trickle Up effect, I guess, right, like people at the top are making the most money even though the sellers at the bottom are working their tails off to do it. exam. So I think that, but with this, there is no ladder, there's no hierarchy, you're getting a straight up commission of the sale.

Thomas: Right, right. And for some of our higher performing sellers, we can up the commission a little bit. But that's, that's more of a reward system for our top performers than any sort of right, you know, a scam system. Not to say that all MLMs are a scam. But I think we all know they have a reputation for a reason

Kerry: That they do I try to look for the ones that if I do end up in incoming contact with that, I look for the ones that a I can buy directly from the store and not the reseller if I don't want to. And I look for the ones who aren't trying to recruit me. Right? They're trying to recruit me, I'm like, nope.

Thomas: And I think that's that's most people honestly, in this day and age, we don't want to be recruited. We have our own things going on. For those that are trying to make money on the side, they are trying to do it through those methods anymore.

Kerry: Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk about affiliate in the way that you use it. You know, you mentioned some of the tactics you're starting to get into. But let's start higher level first, from a strategic standpoint of now that we understand what affiliate means to you in terms of sellers. For this blockchain product you have specifically like how are you thinking about the affiliate program that way? There's a there's a bunch of different things you mentioned, from sponsorships to individuals to you mentioned a podcast which I have so many questions about. But before we get into specific tactics, how, what's sort of the strategy of affiliate marketing as it relates to these these technical tricky b2b products?

Thomas: So and that's another challenge that we face is you have to write the content and the copy for a product that is very technical in a way that the average everyday person can understand. And that sometimes takes a lot more explaining, then you can fit into, you know, the first 15 seconds of conversation, which is about all you really have to make a sale sometimes. So we're working with different affiliates that are trying different methods. And some of those methods aren't working at all. And some of those methods are actually turning out pretty decent results. It's, it's kind of cast a wide net strategy at the moment. And as we get more data, we just came out of beta testing. So we are just now starting to market this project to the public. And so as data comes in, on what types of marketing are effective, we're going to pull resources out of the other ones, and put more into those and continue to try new things and see if those work as well.

Kerry: Optimization is key for sure. I also find that, especially in sort of the when you're more in that initial phase two, I think that was, you know, which is it. What's interesting about affiliate marketing is sort of one tactic. And I sort of like that you're, I don't say putting all your eggs in that basket, it sounds like you're doing other things too. But being careful not to spread yourself too thin and trying too many things. But trying a few, a few things very thoughtfully and then iterating as you go, and then when one thing doesn't work, then potentially adding another one is it sounds like a sort of how you're approaching this.

Thomas: Exactly. Well, it exactly. As you said, we don't want to spread ourselves too thin and kind of if you have too many eggs in one basket, then you're going to not be able to I'm sorry, too many eggs in too many baskets, you're not going to be able to pay much attention to any one of those eggs to have them hatch. Right. So yeah.

Kerry: Right. Yeah. It's a balancing act for sure.

Thomas: Exactly. Exactly.

Kerry: So what tactics are you thinking about testing? Is it all affiliate marketing is it is affiliate one piece of the pie?

Thomas: Affiliate is just one piece of the pie. We have direct marketing efforts that are to specific corporations, we have some contracts that we're working on with certain local state legislatures to protect their city information and whatnot. So we have multiple, multiple marketing efforts out there. This is probably the most exciting one in terms of potential for the number of users. In the short term. We're also working on the the podcast thing, which is going to be phenomenal, we're actually getting some of these college groups together from fit to local school over here. And these are engineering students or computer science students that have interest in just different parts of technology. And so I've got a group of young engineering students that are currently creating video content for machine learning in AI, that they want to start a podcast on and we're, quote unquote, sponsoring them to do so by helping them with the equipment that they need to do the video editing whatnot. And then they they plan to sponsor our product by using it as, you know, their main sponsor during their programs. So we've got a lot of different irons in the fire.

Kerry: How does the I mean from the from a pure connecting to an audience, supporting young folks, I think is incredibly important, isn't it? We are 100% not doing enough. And so the joy that brings to my heart is huge. I, on the flip side, I have to ask, but my marketing brain is chiming in here and wondering, how does that connect to your specific audience though? Like, why is it their audience that matters to you at the end of the day? Are they are you even thinking about that or at the end of day, this is really just a play to help out some college kids, get them on the map and really support them. How are you sort of thinking about that from the terms of the actual demographics?

Thomas: No, I don't expect to necessarily get our key demographic, which we believe are our most sales are going to come from. What I do believe is that if we make inroads with the younger population, by doing this sort of thing, getting our product to be used by the younger population is historically what gets the older population to use it. Look at Facebook or any of these things. It didn't start off with the the, necessarily the 50 plus people. So you're figuring it out and deciding to use this product. It was the young kids and then the elder people followed. And I think that's kind of a trend that we're seeing in technology overall.

Kerry: It's fascinating and have really thought about it that way. And so are they going to actually use? You said you were going to you hook them up with the actual equipment, they need to do the podcast thing, but then will they actually use your product in tandem?

Thomas: They're already using our product to secure their their intellectual property, essentially, their videos and whatnot, are all being stored on the blockchain. And yeah, we'll be protected from ransomware or anything else that that might get to him.

Kerry: That's such an interesting way to think about tapping into a new market is to actually sponsor. You know, that might not work for everybody. But it is a really unique iteration you're in that's just so cool.

Thomas: It's kind of a gamble. Honestly, I'm not sure if it will work, but I've pitched it to the higher ups and they seem to be willing to give it a try. So I'm hoping it does. And if it does, then hopefully, we'll, we'll get more of this outs. Because I, I feel like you do that the younger, younger people need kind of a leg up. They're having some trouble right now, you know?

Kerry: Oh, totally. I actually feel like this is Win Win, even if you don't bring any new customers from it. I mean, the fact that you supported these young, you know, I think that's huge. I also think too, from from a recruiting standpoint, that gets interesting, too. Yes. No?

Thomas: Because these are the young engineers that have the skills that we're going to need as we scale up in terms of programming.

Kerry: Yes, totally. Yeah. This itself, this is so cool. I think we should all try to figure out how to do more of this and help the younger generation break into the market and support them and sponsor them. That's awesome. Um, and that does. I mean, technically, it sounds like this does fall under affiliate marketing. Right. And you are having a good group outside of your company, market your product. I don't know, if they're essentially getting a kickback necessarily, in the way that affiliate work. But that idea of sponsorship, right, they'll get a straight commission, just like any of our other affiliates.

Thomas: Yes. So marketing. Exactly. It's just a kind of a different branch that we're trying to, you know, totally.

Kerry: Well, it feels like affiliate is endless in terms of possibilities.

Thomas: It certainly is it kind of opens up huge markets that were not really attainable without a huge amount of work beforehand. started way back in the day, even to, to sell swords and knives, fantasy sorts of knives from a 13 year old, we managed to get sales. So it was a viable option, then it's an even more viable option now, now that they have those controls and regulations in place, and that they're actually tracking the people that do this. It's not the scary thing it once was.

Kerry: Especially the way that you talk about it of any of this process possibilities of it to like, it just makes us want to think differently about where it, it sounds like you really want to think about in a very creative, it's a whole different leave and try to get my brain to like go there and it's really struggling of like thinking about where your audience is in a really organic way.

Thomas: Yes, absolutely. And the nice part about it is you don't have to target necessarily the demographics that you thought were going to be your, your key demographic, you can target them all. And it's not as if you're spending any extra money as you know, if people don't buy,

Kerry: yeah, until you make the sale, right.

Thomas: So I can open a lot of creative opportunities if you've wanted to try a certain type of marketing that you haven't been able to before or that you didn't want to spend the money on because you didn't know if it was going to work. This is a good way to test pilot those types of campaigns.

Kerry: I just want more examples. Tell me another one that sort of this consumer or b2b market like I can easily see how this works in b2c, right? We just talked about YouTube and Tik Tok and like you have influencers and that's totally, and influencers are technically like a complete affiliate marketing play. For for b2b, it feels harder if it doesn't it other than sales. And sponsorships like I, you know, or a cost per, you know, sales sort of thing. It puts are all very straightforward tactics that we're used to, well, what other what other things? Have you tried whether they have worked or not? What, from an affiliate standpoint? What else have you tried, that's a little bit more off the cuff in terms of this podcast, but similar to this podcasting thing?

Thomas: Well, you know, in terms of different things we've tried on the affiliate with this product. Now, I've tried some crazy things in the past, but I'm not going to talk about those today. In terms of the affiliate thing, we've we've really, we've tried a couple of different avenues, one of which was honestly not not my favorite. And I don't know how to put this exactly, but it was going through the traditional marketing style of sex sells. And personally, I'm glad that one failed. Because that's not the kind of marketing I'm interested in doing. So I switch gears, we moved over to just more informative technical sales, which honestly are not doing as well, either, but they are doing better. So we have kind of a baseline campaign going just from our regular technical explanations. And this is why I kind of brought in the podcasting idea, we need some new fresh ideas, some some better ways of looking at this that aren't so difficult to understand. And if we're looking at a general population that has the, the reading an education level of around 12th grade, these people that are just getting out of high school and just starting college are the perfect people to essentially write our marketing copy for us. So that's kind of how I've been approaching that. And then we have a lot of very specific, tailored information. That is it's going back more than the technical side, but it's tailored for specific industries such as healthcare or government or etc.

Kerry: Yeah, which are such tough industries to break into really is about who you know, in that space, I could see how affiliate would work really well.

Thomas: Right? Right, especially if they have a long history with certain clients. That's another thing that you can look for in terms of affiliates that you invite to join your program. Maybe you aren't looking for 100 million views, you're looking for 12 views from the right people. And maybe you can find affiliates that can give you those 12 views to those right people. So the I guess the the flexibility of this program is there's really no limits, you can do almost anything you want within the confines of the law, of course.

Kerry: And then what happens if they write the copy for you? And that copy works? Or is this more of a or is this more like a cost per piece that they write?

Thomas: Um, no, this is more along the lines of you're creating your own marketing materials and you get paid your commission based on your performance. It's simply you want to help yourself sell more, and then you can create content to do so here's our basic content, here's what's approved. Come back to me with whatever you want to say about us, and I will approve it from there. And we can work on details.

Kerry: And they already have the network because these these folks are so where are you finding these folks? You know, in, in the healthcare space? Are you looking at practitioners? Are you looking at salespeople are you looking at like?

Thomas: Actually, for healthcare, specifically, we've been looking at board members, for different groups, specifically, because in the end, they're the ones that make the decisions. And it seems like when we approach tech people with our tech products, it tends to get bogged down. And they spend all their time talking about tech stuff and not whether the company can afford to put in a blockchain system. So we kind of skipped over the tech people. Now we that was our previous Avenue. Right. But in the end, they are the decision makers. And so it's far better to go straight to the board. In that specific case. We've had a lot more luck doing that. And we do have a couple of hospital systems on our program now.

Kerry: And I imagine board members, they would be working with multiple hospitals or healthcare systems. So it would it would work well from that standpoint of like making the recommendation.

Thomas: Exactly. That way, our board members on not only specific hospitals, but hospital groups for entire regions.

Kerry: Yeah, I had a curiosity. Is it I don't want to say this sounds unethical it because it's just me not. I'm still trying to wrap my brain around all this. But if you're if there's a board member who's getting essentially, commission from you saw that?

Thomas: Let me let me clarify, I'm sorry, those those would not be through our affiliate marketing programs. Those are just straight direct. Contact marketing's we know, that would not be legal.

Kerry: Okay. I was like this. Very this sounds gray.

Thomas: That would not be No, we're a public company. We couldn't do anything like that.

Kerry: It's like, I don't think I'm following this. I need clarity. So I'm so glad I asked. Okay, so from a marketing standpoint, that's really that's, that's so smart. Smart.

Thomas: Yeah,we've been hitting all the different inroads on on different things. And, you know, it only takes one thing to work. But it's, again, a question of how much effort do you want to spread between all of these things? So we're working our way through and making sure we get the right marketing types for us? Essentially?

Kerry: Yeah, you don't sound like You sound very strategic. Here, you're very strategic approach, let's, from a higher up standpoint, let's do some direct marketing to those decision makers, those board members, let's give them the right materials, of how they how this is going to help them. And then if they find that this is really helpful, then they can sell it into multiple people. So So you sort of have like the top down avenue through direct marketing and to be very clear, direct marketing, yes. And then you sort of have this bottom up idea to where you're talking about affiliate marketing, where it's like, okay, let's interact with a wider, younger audience and arm them with the ability to make some cash of off and learn marketing at the same time. And sponsor them while we do it in a way that empowers them to enter the marketplace in a really thoughtful way.

Thomas: So it's, it also might empower them to become subject matters, experts in their fields or their intended fields and give them a leg up in their future careers as well.

Kerry: Hopefully, yeah, this is a really interesting approach I that I, I could see how those two things would sort of work. Not necessarily like together as in one impacting the other but just in terms of your you're not just coming at it from we just need to talk to decision makers all day, right? You're trying to look at a broader avenue to because there's only so many decision makers, and there's a million tech products out there right now they're getting inundated day in and day out. So I think this podcast thing and this content writers thing is just so cool. I am inspired I'm so inspired and I'm so grateful that we had such a great conversation about affiliate, I think there's been, I think there's a lot of misconception around it. I don't know that people know how to approach it. If feel it, I think you have to have the right brain power to figure out how to activate it because it's not. It's not black and white, there's not a lot of guardrails, you get to get really creative with it. So when you can do that, like you have, well, is it really impactful and powerful? And so thank you, Thomas, this has been such an important conversation, and I'm grateful to have had it with you.

Thomas: Oh, you're very welcome. Yeah.

Kerry: Um, is there any one last thing that you wish people knew about affiliate marketing, in your experience that you want them to take away that maybe we haven't said yet? Is there one last piece of advice you'd give?

Thomas: Um, that's something we haven't really said before. But it's not the demon it's been made out to be. And it's a highly effective and extremely flexible tool for any marketing, organization, or any marketing. Part of it any company, it's going to open up avenues that were not available for very little cost. So it's worth checking out.

Kerry: My last question, because I can't help myself. My last question is, for people who feel inspired by this, how would you recommend they get started?

Thomas: Well, there are multiple multiple systems out there, check out a win. Affiliate window, it's Aw, I n.com. There's Commission Junction, which is one of the oldest ones out there. Or just do a Google search for any of the affiliate marketing deals. So you can sign up as a publisher, if you want usually for free, and sell products for other people and kind of get a feel for how the system works. And then usually they have a small fee to get you started as a an actual seller, a company that's trying to sell through affiliates. But most of those will give you a little bit of a trial to go through and look at their system see if it's something that you want to test out.

Kerry: Perfect. So grateful, Thomas before we close out here, you are more than an affiliate marketer clearly as you have a quite interesting journey here. I have three quick questions for you just so people get to learn more about you as a person if you're ready. Sure. First question for you is have you picked up any new hobbies over the last few years given the change in the world?

Thomas: Actually, yes, I have I've taken up painting and sculpting. So I've been doing that pretty much most of my off time. What little of that I get so

Kerry: What do you is it landscape is it? What's sort of your or

Thomas: My painting, it's more abstract and surrealism. And then for my sculpture, I kind of go for realism.

Kerry: Ah, beautiful. Beautiful I just studied art history was I went to school for photography, so very cool to see more people picking it up since COVID. Yeah. Second question for you is speaking of of COVID now that things are open up and people are traveling again assuming that there's no red tape anymore no long lines that nobody's traveling so of course your phone lines everywhere but assuming none of that was in your way. Where would you go Thomas and why?

Thomas: My next trip is actually hopefully to Australia to see the southern lights I went two years ago to Alaska to see the northern lights during Christmas and I would really like to see the the other side of things so

Kerry: I didn't even know there were southern lights

Thomas: Yeah, I didn't either until I saw the Northern Lights and was doing some reading on him. And yeah that's so cool. The People's bucket list

Kerry: I know it's online now for sure north I guess Northern Lights person a little closer to those. So that's, that's first on my list. And then and now I know I have another the next day. Next day. Last question for you. Thomas. Is you it sounds like you're near your team. Sounds like you guys get together. somewhat regularly as you take these trips to my what in terms of the vibe of your team? What song do you think captures your or what vibe would you want to be setting when you are with when you want are together.

Thomas: It's definitely I don't know about a specific song, but it's definitely something high energy and very high tempo. Something that gets you going. I have the tiger comes to mind. It's the blood pumping.

Kerry: You know. I love it and then we can sing along to that's important.

Thomas: Exactly right.

Kerry: Thank you so much, Thomas. This has been such a joy. I'm so grateful.

Thomas: Yes. Well, thank you so much for having me. Feel free to have me back on at any point.

Kerry: Oh, I might just take you up on that. Well, you are you're going to join what's the problem? So both be sure to jump on over there and check out that episode as well.

Thomas: Yes, absolutely. Looking forward to it.

Outro

That was my conversation with Thomas beavers. If you'd like to learn more about blockchain or affiliate marketing, be sure to connect with him on LinkedIn. His link is in the show notes. Thank you again, Thomas for joining me. What an awesome conversation.